Simmental vs Hereford Bull

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Well I hate to tell them but around here a lot of the black calves are simmental.
I think that statement supports the idea that the buyers are looking for a "type" as Fence said. The buyers obviously don't DNA the cattle. If the black simmentals look the "type", they are likely to not sell at a lower price. It is not just about the color, but the overall perception that the animal "looks" to be the type that will make money for the buyer/new owner based on his experience buying cattle and feedback on how those cattle performed in the past. Buyers are experienced. They know that not all black cattle are angus. If they purchase cattle based on JUST being black, they will hear about it from the guy they are buying for.

The buyer does not buy those cattle that don't fit the type he has an order for. Someone else buys them who has an order or use for that type of cattle. They probably go to a different place with a different plan that allows them to buy those cattle, but based on a lower cost. In that sense, there is no discount by the "buyer" just because he can. The original buyer does not bid on those off marked cattle at all for his black "type" order. So if there are fewer bidders (less demand) for an animal, it likely sells for less money.

Many cattle sell in large groups. Group lots that are more uniform (including color) tend to bring a little more. Singles tend to bring less.

And there is a LOT more involved than just how the animal will finish. There is high risk in having money invested in cattle. The buyer/new owner wants cattle that "based on his experience" will result in lowest risk for him. He will pass on those that he fears might not have the growth rate, feed efficiency, carcass traits, health (sick cattle cost the owner a LOT of money), etc that will minimize his risk. He is going to do his best to select the type cattle that best fit the plan for them at the lowest risk. Twenty years ago, those simmental had a reputation for excessive sickness and health problems in the feedlot. Whether that was true or not, IF you believed that to be the case and were going to purchase hundreds or thousands of head, you would be inclined to select angus appearing cattle compared to simmental appearing to minimize your risk - even if you had to pay a few cents more per pound for the angus type. If your experience or perception was that the simmental type were more likely to get sick.

In this area, there are some cattle with ear blood. If you take those cattle a hundred miles to the north to market, you will receive much less for them than if you take them 100 miles south. Different buyers with different orders for cattle in a few hundred miles. Those buyers to the north don't have orders for ear cattle. Cattle there are going toward the midwest where ear cattle do not perform as well in cold weather. To the south, buyers there have orders for cattle going west, but more south (Texas, Mississippi, etc). If you take ear cattle to the north, they are more likely to be purchased at a big discount and then hauled back to the south with another person involved trying to make some money by moving cattle to where there is a better market for them. Point is that the buyers for different types of cattle tend to go where there are more of those cattle available and the seller should try to market where there is better demand for his type cattle.

Different areas of the country are different. My understanding is that those red angus will have no discount in areas like Montana and the Dakotas. Supply and demand. Why do some brand of tractors or trucks or other equipment retain value better or sell at a higher price than other brands? Because they are better? Because they are perceived to be better? Either may be correct. Both drive the supply and demand which drives the price. The bidding stops when the price reaches a point that all the buyers believe is the max price they can pay and still have room for profit (based on their orders).
Just sharing what I believe to be the case and enjoying the conversation.
 
Instead of why do they pay less for the reds.....I ask why do they pay more for the blacks????????
Personally I think the Certified Angus Beef deal has a lot to do with it. But there again you'd think the red angus would get the same love, Like Ky hills said that's when you throw all logic about angus being better out the window when you're docking red ANGUS cattle, the only explanation then is color.
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I think that statement supports the idea that the buyers are looking for a "type" as Fence said. The buyers obviously don't DNA the cattle. If the black simmentals look the "type", they are likely to not sell at a lower price. It is not just about the color, but the overall perception that the animal "looks" to be the type that will make money for the buyer/new owner based on his experience buying cattle and feedback on how those cattle performed in the past. Buyers are experienced. They know that not all black cattle are angus. If they purchase cattle based on JUST being black, they will hear about it from the guy they are buying for.

The buyer does not buy those cattle that don't fit the type he has an order for. Someone else buys them who has an order or use for that type of cattle. They probably go to a different place with a different plan that allows them to buy those cattle, but based on a lower cost. In that sense, there is no discount by the "buyer" just because he can. The original buyer does not bid on those off marked cattle at all for his black "type" order. So if there are fewer bidders (less demand) for an animal, it likely sells for less money.

Many cattle sell in large groups. Group lots that are more uniform (including color) tend to bring a little more. Singles tend to bring less.

And there is a LOT more involved than just how the animal will finish. There is high risk in having money invested in cattle. The buyer/new owner wants cattle that "based on his experience" will result in lowest risk for him. He will pass on those that he fears might not have the growth rate, feed efficiency, carcass traits, health (sick cattle cost the owner a LOT of money), etc that will minimize his risk. He is going to do his best to select the type cattle that best fit the plan for them at the lowest risk. Twenty years ago, those simmental had a reputation for excessive sickness and health problems in the feedlot. Whether that was true or not, IF you believed that to be the case and were going to purchase hundreds or thousands of head, you would be inclined to select angus appearing cattle compared to simmental appearing to minimize your risk - even if you had to pay a few cents more per pound for the angus type. If your experience or perception was that the simmental type were more likely to get sick.

In this area, there are some cattle with ear blood. If you take those cattle a hundred miles to the north to market, you will receive much less for them than if you take them 100 miles south. Different buyers with different orders for cattle in a few hundred miles. Those buyers to the north don't have orders for ear cattle. Cattle there are going toward the midwest where ear cattle do not perform as well in cold weather. To the south, buyers there have orders for cattle going west, but more south (Texas, Mississippi, etc). If you take ear cattle to the north, they are more likely to be purchased at a big discount and then hauled back to the south with another person involved trying to make some money by moving cattle to where there is a better market for them. Point is that the buyers for different types of cattle tend to go where there are more of those cattle available and the seller should try to market where there is better demand for his type cattle.

Different areas of the country are different. My understanding is that those red angus will have no discount in areas like Montana and the Dakotas. Supply and demand. Why do some brand of tractors or trucks or other equipment retain value better or sell at a higher price than other brands? Because they are better? Because they are perceived to be better? Either may be correct. Both drive the supply and demand which drives the price. The bidding stops when the price reaches a point that all the buyers believe is the max price they can pay and still have room for profit (based on their orders).
Just sharing what I believe to be the case and enjoying the conversation.
I'd agree but red angus are the same type as black angus, only difference is the red hide.
 
Somehow I don't believe that most buyers can tell the difference between a black Angus and a black Simmental and other black hided breeds unless done by DNA testing. There are over 18 breeds that's gone black in United States and many breeds continue jumping into Angus black hide wagon....that's why the CAB didn't require the animal to be an Angus.....any non-Angus animals can be CAB. Also I would like think that the buyers can tell the difference between a longhorn chrome and a shorthorn chrome or a Simmental chrome or a Hereford chrome. Here in my area, you'll give away chromed up shorthorn calves for nothing but the buyers will pay full prices for their full red siblings...that makes no sense. Even a beefy charX with white tail got sold for less than the charX without white tails. I knew a guy in Iowa that feed out over 300 pinzgauer and pinzgauer cross feeders that graded prime and fetched CAB premium prices consistently.
 
I'd agree but red angus are the same type as black angus, only difference is the red hide.
The black hide is the first hoop a calf has to jump through to qualify for CAB at the packing plant. It's a quick and easy pass or fail which most will agree is not perfect, then the carcass has to meet quality standards. Back when the program started, it was hoped it would increase demand for Angus bulls on commercial cows. I don't think anyone expected it to turn the other breeds black at the time. Once the program was established and paying a premium, everybody wants to jump on the bandwagon.
 
How far are you from Dublin? We've sold with the Dublin Feeder Cattle Assn. for several years now on the TeloAuction and we've been pleased. They do dock the reds, but we rarely have a red calf nowadays. You should check it out if you are close. Abingdon FCA does a bang up good job getting cattle sold on the VCA's Board sales as well. The Carroll/Grayson group has just started up a marketing group on the TOA, and they too are starting to get some impressive numbers and getting them sold well too.
About a 1.5 from Dublin, Iam about a 10 minute drive from the TRI-State market in Abingdon. I haven't sold any of my calves through the VQA sales here. Usually just take them to TRI-State and sell them in groups and they usually bring top price. Sometimes I sell at CH in Glade Sprimgs.
 
Just some thoughts I have. I could very well be wrong and encourage others to disagree and straighten me out.
Once the hair and skin are off, there can't be any exterior color bias applied to the carcass, It gets graded like any other carcass. So, those who are able to retain ownership through the feedlot are much more likely to eliminate any color bias impact and get paid for the value of the carcass. If you go that route, there are a lot of things to worry about other than color. If you sell at an auction, the bias is present not due to any conspiracy - but due to supply and demand. A free market economy. If you look at the ownership after weaning, the calf might be purchased by a stocker operation who later sells to a feedlot who later sells to a packer. At each point of ownership changes, the seller hopes to sell as high as possible, but the buyer hopes to buy as low as possible. With price determined by supply and demand. There are probably buyers involved who have orders to buy certain quantities of animals of a certain type. And they are buying for multiple people. The buyer is trying to fill the order he has been given as close as possible based on what the new owner wants for his conditions and his experience with types of cattle and his belief about relationship between breed composition (real or perceived) and appearance as relates to the new owner being able to make a profit off the cattle. Many issues here including beliefs/experience about health, growth, cost of gain, carcass quality, frame, appearance, making a load of similar cattle, weather/environment where they are going, etc. These issues occur each time ownership is transferred and maybe the evaluation of worth is a little less biased as it moves though the supply chain. Point of my rambling - the cow-calf guy is the bottom of the supply chain and can be rewarded for matching his supply to fit the demand in his marketplace.
Now, it seems that this color thing is much more pronounced in the US than other countries and more so in some regions of the US than others. Anyone have opinions on why that is the case? But, I still think it is just supply and demand.
"Now, it seems that this color thing is much more pronounced in the US than other countries and more so in some regions of the US than others. Anyone have opinions on why that is the case?" Yes, CAB.
 
"Now, it seems that this color thing is much more pronounced in the US than other countries and more so in some regions of the US than others. Anyone have opinions on why that is the case?" Yes, CAB.
It is all politics. Here are the most current requirements for CAB. CAB started as nothing more than marketing, but then they got some Federal Laws passed so here we are.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/G1CertifiedAngusBeef.pdf

Beef carcasses certified under this specification shall meet the following requirements:

a. Phenotypic or genotypic requirements of the American Angus Association's (AAA) Live Animal Specification,

b. Classed as Steer and Heifer carcasses only1 ;

c. U.S. Prime and Choice, and have a minimum marbling score of Modest 01 ;

d. Less than 30 months of age with lean color, texture, and firmness, meeting the requirements for A maturity in the U.S. grade it qualifies for1 ;

e. Medium or fine marbling texture1,2 ;

f. 1) Ribeye Area (REA) of 10.0 to 16.0 square inches3 ; 2) Ribeye Area (REA) of 10.0 to 19.0 square inches4 ;

g. Hot Carcass Weight (HCW) of 1,050 pounds or less5 ;

h. Fat Thickness (FT) of 1.0 inch or less6 ;

i. Moderately thick or thicker muscling and tend to be at least moderately wide and thick in relation to their length7 ;

j. No hump exceeding 2 inches in height8 ;

k. Practically free (not detracting from visual quality) of capillary rupture in the ribeye muscle;

and l. Free of "dark cutting" characteristics.
 
Have we all forgotten the high demand for black hided cattle from Japan? With CAB & Japan, black hide jumped tremendously.
On the feedlot dock for Simmental - years ago, pretty much all steers were backgrounded. Fullblood Simmental sired calves had monster weaning weights, but were backgrounded with the British breed calves. Backgrounder was growing frame on the Simmie calves. By the time they got on a feedlot and finished out, they were 1700# steers. Feedlots hated them - too way to long to finish. So ---- if a buyer saw extra white markings (spots especially) they were docked because their orders did not want them. Old habits die hard. I had not heard the health issue, but that would add to the color issue.
If at all possible, a producer needs to find his own market for his cattle. If you love to raise red cattle or whatever, you need to find a market that you can prove your cattle will succeed for them. I have not run a steer through a sale ring in probably 30 years. Mine go direct from wean/precondition to a feedlot. He grins and tells me how much money he makes with my cattle. He buys direct from my bull buyers also.
I do believe if your cattle perform well on the feedlots - no matter what breed/breeds - buyers will add your farm to their list of acceptable purchases.
Also - on the Herefords - many years ago our Cornell beef advisor told us that there was an automatic $0.10- $0.15 dock on all Hereford looking cattle because the Herefords tended to put too much fat on before putting marbling. May not be the case in the modern Hereford, but that was their reputation at that time - old habits die hard.
 
Also - on the Herefords - many years ago our Cornell beef advisor told us that there was an automatic $0.10- $0.15 dock on all Hereford looking cattle because the Herefords tended to put too much fat on before putting marbling. May not be the case in the modern Hereford, but that was their reputation at that time - old habits die hard.
The same was true of Angus back in the '60s. No one wanted them for this exact reason. Then genetic selection and Marketing took over.
 
The same was true of Angus back in the '60s. No one wanted them for this exact reason. Then genetic selection and Marketing took over.
We did some research last year. One thing that we found was that the Angus breed began to have more choice and prime carcasses when they were being fed to heavier weights. Diary beef makes up just short of 25% of the beef that is consumed. In that 25%, the % of diary beef that goes choice and prime is high. In our research it was mentioned that 2 other breeds could have an impact on carcass quality, those 2 breeds are Hereford and Fleckvieh!
 
I got three hereford bull stockers last spring - 2 reds and a black. I bought them for about 20 cents cheaper than what I thought they were worth. When I got them home, I admit they didn't look the best. Although, I got several other calves that didn't look that great, and they all upgraded and turned out great. The herefords ended up only gaining 0.7 ADG. All the other calves that size had 1.4 ADG, minus one that struggled with pink eye on and off. The two reds sold for $1.05. The black hereford sold with the black pinkeye calf for $1.30.

I'm sure some modern herefords grow very well, but I think a lot of buyers have a stigma that they may not grow well. I learned my lesson. I'll stay away from herefords for a while.
 
Feedlots keep records. They know what works for them and what doesn't. Margins can be pretty tight so they have to stick to what preforms the best. The ones that don't preform the best the feedlots need to figure out a way to cut costs. The easiest way to do that is to pay less at purchase. Buyers are are sharp or they are unemployed. Sit in a sale like I was at last week. They run in 30, 40, 50 head at a time. In less than 30 seconds the buyer are asking to cut one out. Once they get to the cut I can see why but I sure couldn't eye a pen and cut that one or two that quickly.
 
I got three hereford bull stockers last spring - 2 reds and a black. I bought them for about 20 cents cheaper than what I thought they were worth. When I got them home, I admit they didn't look the best. Although, I got several other calves that didn't look that great, and they all upgraded and turned out great. The herefords ended up only gaining 0.7 ADG. All the other calves that size had 1.4 ADG, minus one that struggled with pink eye on and off. The two reds sold for $1.05. The black hereford sold with the black pinkeye calf for $1.30.

I'm sure some modern herefords grow very well, but I think a lot of buyers have a stigma that they may not grow well. I learned my lesson. I'll stay away from herefords for a while.
The modern Herefords are just like the Angus calves as far as growth it takes a calf with some frame to grow and unfortunately both breeds seem to have breeders that promote small framed cattle. They look good and sound good but when marketed those calves are small and get fleshy instead of growing and then fleshing out. When selecting Hereford bulls I want a larger framed one then those calves will perform against any other. Unfortunately there are a lot of toads out there, that put out calves like you got a hold of and then it looks bad on the breed as whole to who ever has that experience. I had a set of Angus sired calves out mostly commercial black heifers born back in the spring. They looked good to me but weaned of fat and even without pushing them after weaning when they were sold they were docked because of lacking frame and being "fleshy".
 

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