It's pretty hard to put everything you have in to a calf when you still need some of it to grow yourself.
Seventh horse dies at Churchill Downs
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
If you are referring to breeding 14/15 month old heifers to calve at 2 years old, I will argue that there is NO ill effect to the cows. ALL my heifers are bred to calve at 2 years old and I rarely cull a cow under 10 years of age - calving every year. Granted, you cannot expect a poorly nutritioned heifer to accomplish this. Management is more important than the age.
Even at these high grain prices right now, I am looking at about $140 in corn/hd (8 months of supplement - weaning to breeding) to produce a calf at 24 months old. But, how much hay is saved by supplementing with corn??? I don't know. These heifers are plenty big enough to calve on their own. They are watched as closely as I watch my mature cows.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
I remember that duel well, as Alidar was my pick (guess being a Minnesotan a 2nd best cloud follows me) race was so close I remember wondering if Alidar even knew he lost.
wbvs58
Well-known member
Australian racing is geared very much to 2 yr old racing, we have some very big prizes for 2 yr olds as in the Golden Slipper and Magic Millions to name two so that the carrot is there for owners to recoup the enormous outlays at yearling sales. We have a lot of shorter races, 1200 to 1400 metre races as well. Our best known race the Melbourne Cup is over 3200 m with a lot of other medium to long distance races leading up to it. Over the years NZ trainers have regularly come over and knocked off these big races with horses that have been brought along a lot slower and not raced or lightly raced until the likes of 4 yr olds. Now a lot of overseas specialist distance horses are coming here to tackle the big ones.
I don't think racing as 2 yr olds contributes to injuries that necessitate euthanasia of the animal any more than leaving them until later. Racing them early does contribute to a lot of injuries that reduces or terminates their careers though. The other thing is you never get injuries in horses that aren't much good, they just don't try hard enough.
Ken
Ebenezer
Well-known member
article on TB inbreeding
Estimate in the article that all TBs are getting toward 12.5% IBC to be like breeding half sibs.
Estimate in the article that all TBs are getting toward 12.5% IBC to be like breeding half sibs.
Why do you breed at that age?
I don't breed off of age. I breed off on natural development of the heifer. We have cattle from full blood Braman to 1/8 Brahman. They do not all develope at the same age. Pushing feed to them to develope is not going to help them, in the long run, in an operation that doesn't push feed to their cows.
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I do agree it comes down to management and it's not feed vs no feed. It's people who are in tune with their cattle and have a plan vs those who just want to quote studies or holller... it's too expensive to not breed them.
How many times have we seen people say it's too expensive to wait to breed them. Then they buy heifer bulls, have dedicated heifer pastures, push feed to get them to weight, breed early or wean early to rest them, say you cant retain a heifer from a heifer because the calf isn't up to snuff, have you wait sinc them with the heard, etc.
Ya, no dice on that line.
How many times have we seen people say it's too expensive to wait to breed them. Then they buy heifer bulls, have dedicated heifer pastures, push feed to get them to weight, breed early or wean early to rest them, say you cant retain a heifer from a heifer because the calf isn't up to snuff, have you wait sinc them with the heard, etc.
Ya, no dice on that line.
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Silver
Well-known member
If one can not breed heifers capable of calving at 24 months and staying in the herd then one should not breed heifers to calve at 24 months.
Ky hills
Well-known member
I've always believed that British and most continental breeds are just as well off to be bred at 14-15 months as opposed to waiting till 2 years of age. From what I have seen they are more likely to calve consistently at regular intervals. May be just anecdotal, but I've always thought that waiting longer just gave them more time to get in heavier than necessary condition which could affect fertility.
Obviously, later maturing breeds like high percentage or full Brahmans would be different and should be bred later.
On the subject of horse racing, it's definitely not my cup of tea. It's more of a pomp and circumstance thing. It's the big deal in KY. I'll take ranch horses, pleasure horses, work horses or mules any day but definitely not into thoroughbred racing or English style events.
Obviously, later maturing breeds like high percentage or full Brahmans would be different and should be bred later.
On the subject of horse racing, it's definitely not my cup of tea. It's more of a pomp and circumstance thing. It's the big deal in KY. I'll take ranch horses, pleasure horses, work horses or mules any day but definitely not into thoroughbred racing or English style events.
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farmerjan
Well-known member
I fully agree that @Jeanne - Simme Valley has a breed, and the management, to get calves on the ground at 2 and for them to be exceptional animals... Testament to the fact that they have put years into developing their "line" of simmentals and the their management has developed these animals to do what she wants and how she wants it. I am not saying that 2 yr olds can't or shouldn't be calving... just that for some it doesn't work as well... and some breeds are slower maturing...
That said, being bred and calving as a 2 yr old, is WAY DIFFERENT than taking a YOUNG horse and putting it under the stress on the bones, legs, ligaments, muscles , tendons, and everything else while they are still developing, to run like the wind with a weight upon their back... That is more physical demands than I think nature designed a horse to handle at that young of an age..... but then, I don't have TB's.... I have had some QH and Apps, and crossbreds over the years, and my one filly I did some riding when she was nearly 2 but it was light and not hard pounding riding.... but by the time she was 3, I was riding her daily..... she still had a sway back as an old mare though.... but she never had the leg or foot problems or lameness.... that so many get from the hard use as a youngster.
That said, being bred and calving as a 2 yr old, is WAY DIFFERENT than taking a YOUNG horse and putting it under the stress on the bones, legs, ligaments, muscles , tendons, and everything else while they are still developing, to run like the wind with a weight upon their back... That is more physical demands than I think nature designed a horse to handle at that young of an age..... but then, I don't have TB's.... I have had some QH and Apps, and crossbreds over the years, and my one filly I did some riding when she was nearly 2 but it was light and not hard pounding riding.... but by the time she was 3, I was riding her daily..... she still had a sway back as an old mare though.... but she never had the leg or foot problems or lameness.... that so many get from the hard use as a youngster.
sunnyblueskies
Well-known member
I don't think you can compare breeding young and racing young.
Racing young is a man made pressure put on the animal at the choice of age of the human. Don't see any race horses trucking themselves to the race course, putting themselves in the starting chute and race.
The fact of when a heifer is ready to be bred isn't really under human control I find, because if you were to leave your herd all together, cows and heifers, they would be bred whenever they would start to cycle, whatever age that may be.
All we control is when we expose them and who we keep to be exposed to make life simply easier for us (less first calf'er problems) or more profitable.
Racing young is a man made pressure put on the animal at the choice of age of the human. Don't see any race horses trucking themselves to the race course, putting themselves in the starting chute and race.
The fact of when a heifer is ready to be bred isn't really under human control I find, because if you were to leave your herd all together, cows and heifers, they would be bred whenever they would start to cycle, whatever age that may be.
All we control is when we expose them and who we keep to be exposed to make life simply easier for us (less first calf'er problems) or more profitable.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Money and management. The comparison was made alluding to how some create pressure within their herds by allowing heifers to be bred too young in the pursuit of money rather than managing herd in the animals best interest. In the wild puberty is regulated by growth and available nutrition.
It is all about money. There is nothing detrimental to the health of a cow by waiting til she is at least 24 months old to breed her. Much better for the cow, in fact. But, people who retain heifers will have another 9-10 months to wait til that heifer's calf gets here. If this were "law" it wouldn't effect someone like me at all. I trailer wean ALL calves at 6 months, and buy replacement cows if needed. If it were law that no horse could be saddled til 4 yr old, nor entered into competition, it would effect owners. and trainers for just 3 years tops. 2022 foals could not be shown or raced until 2027, but they'd have competition horses every year after that, so their money situation would be back on track. But, they'd have a horse they could run every week, even every day insteqd of these babies they can run once every 3 weeks or so. An 8-10 yr old, you could run every time the track was open, and more than one race a day. But few owners or hardly any trainers trainers would have pockets deep enough top survive 3 years with no income.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
In that "wild herd" of cows, the heifers would breed on first cycle which would be more like 7 months old. And they would likely breed to close relatives such as sire of half brothers. Nutrition in the wild: they have no fences and they go to the food. Not a strong argument. I have never understood the want to compare herds and flocks to wild groups. It is not the same thing in so many ways.
I have a few cows that I bought that were bred to calve at 30 months old. They are bigger but not better for it. We calve at 24 months because it keeps the herd in the same calendar cycle. It has worked for decades.
If Secretariat's progeny were not close to his equal, how did 17 horses of 18 in the Derby have his genes? Of all the thoroughbred foals born three years ago, that is a pretty high percentage of the cream of the crop having his genes. It is often not the first generation that inherits the talents of the father, it is the second generation and even more the third generation.
Part of the cause is disruption of the bone development on the fetus foals during development. Thoroughbreds eat grass and grain, both have tested high in neonicotinoids and glyphosate. Just neonicotinoids alone were shown by studies to cause mammal babies to have birth defects, including disrupted bone development. Simultaneous exposure to neonicotinoids and glyphosate cause synergistic effects that are (according to testing) up to 1000 times more damaging than exposure to either pesticide alone. A high prevalence of tests of surface water and air was positive for both of those because of the very excessive use. Most pregnant animal mothers that have been tested have significant levels, especially the most commonly tested, human mothers.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Marlin Perkins is dead and my Mutual of Omaha insurance agent is out to lunch. But I was thinking of wild animals in very tough environments and bachelor males run off to prevent inbreeding. But let's take buffalo in their heyday. A gazillion on the prairie with more grass than they could eat. IF buffalo heifers were bred too small and 1/3 died calving, so what, the herd was still repopulating faster than needed to sustain and were providing easy food for predators and scavengers.
Travlr
Well-known member
It's interesting that Seabiscuit was born in 1933 and retired from racing in 1940, his best years his later years. War Admiral was a year younger horse when they raced in 1938 so War admiral was four and SB was 5. Both were faster than their early years. So why are horses retired so young now? Or are older horses raced and it's just not as common and widely known?
