science takes 20 years to figure out what most of us already knew?

[Margonme]

TB, If I get that thirsty I'll drink american beer

No doubt there's 'stuff' in my water.. and during runoff it's muddy, but that only lasts for a week or so... At no point it time does it ever taste of chlorine or brimstone though... Besides.. that "stuff" probably is good for your immune system

Nesi I was working a pen of calves many years ago and it was hot as the hinges of he// and I had no water with me. Walked down a pretty little creek, drank my belly full of that wonderful cold water and loved every drop of it. Walked up the shallow creek just to cool down and relax a few minutes and walked up on a dead calf laying in the creek......didn't matter, that water was still awesome. :lol2: :lol2:

What I want to know is if you had the drizzling shyts that night?

 

[True Grit Farms]

talking about government waste at it's finest, great example by the way. Slowing down Immigration cured Ebola in this country, hopefully it'll work as good on islamic terrorism.
Natural selection is a good way to fight diseases, unless you happen to be one of the weak one's. I still feel private business can and will fund the R&D scientific studies that we need.

So you think when something like the "Black Death" came through Europe and killed half the population, that was "natural selection"?? (It killed the young and old, small and large, weak and strong.

Yes, or the black death would of killed everyone. Short of nuclear or biological weapons attack we have nothing to worry about. I thought AIDS was sent here to cleanse the population and was very selective but we see how that worked out.

 

[TexasBred]

TB, If I get that thirsty I'll drink american beer

No doubt there's 'stuff' in my water.. and during runoff it's muddy, but that only lasts for a week or so... At no point it time does it ever taste of chlorine or brimstone though... Besides.. that "stuff" probably is good for your immune system

Nesi I was working a pen of calves many years ago and it was hot as the hinges of he// and I had no water with me. Walked down a pretty little creek, drank my belly full of that wonderful cold water and loved every drop of it. Walked up the shallow creek just to cool down and relax a few minutes and walked up on a dead calf laying in the creek......didn't matter, that water was still awesome. :lol2: :lol2:

What I want to know is if you had the drizzling shyts that night?

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: Not that I remember.

 

[TexasBred]

talking about government waste at it's finest, great example by the way. Slowing down Immigration cured Ebola in this country, hopefully it'll work as good on islamic terrorism.
Natural selection is a good way to fight diseases, unless you happen to be one of the weak one's. I still feel private business can and will fund the R&D scientific studies that we need.

So you think when something like the "Black Death" came through Europe and killed half the population, that was "natural selection"?? (It killed the young and old, small and large, weak and strong.

Yes, or the black death would of killed everyone. Short of nuclear or biological weapons attack we have nothing to worry about. I thought AIDS was sent here to cleanse the population and was very selective but we see how that worked out.

No some simply were not exposed.

 

[1wlimo]

There needs to be government science, and there deffinatly needs to be the ability to respond rapidly to pandemics. More people died from flue following WW1 than from fighting.

There also needs to be a realisation that messing with genetics Is not is simple. Genes are simply single switches for a single trait, or we would have a much easier time breeding cattle. This is why GMOs are a bad idea unless you are selling the seed. To get herbicide tolerance you have to loose something, and that would appear to be some nutritional changes and less drought tolerance. However as this is big businesses idea information is not definitive.

 

[Margonme]

There needs to be government science, and there deffinatly needs to be the ability to respond rapidly to pandemics. More people died from flue following WW1 than from fighting.

There also needs to be a realisation that messing with genetics Is not is simple. Genes are simply single switches for a single trait, or we would have a much easier time breeding cattle. This is why GMOs are a bad idea unless you are selling the seed. To get herbicide tolerance you have to loose something, and that would appear to be some nutritional changes and less drought tolerance. However as this is big businesses idea information is not definitive.

May I edit? I think you intended to say the following:

Genes are (NOT) simply single switches for a single trait,...

 

[boondocks]

There needs to be government science, and there deffinatly needs to be the ability to respond rapidly to pandemics. More people died from flue following WW1 than from fighting.

There also needs to be a realisation that messing with genetics Is not is simple. Genes are simply single switches for a single trait, or we would have a much easier time breeding cattle. This is why GMOs are a bad idea unless you are selling the seed. To get herbicide tolerance you have to loose something, and that would appear to be some nutritional changes and less drought tolerance. However as this is big businesses idea information is not definitive.

And my great-grandmother was one of them.
TG thinks if we "just" "close the borders" no diseases will spread. The Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918 was spread by our soldiers returning from the war. TG, are we not going to post any more soldiers anywhere? Are we not going to be allowed to leave the country? We will always have viruses and bacteria. And they will always spread; they are quite literally engineered specifically to do so, with amazingly intricate structures and functions.
And even if we COULD just put the whole country in a bubble, no one allowed to come or go, there's that pesky little mutation thing that we'd still have to worry about...
Bottom line, folks who know absolutely nothing about viruses, bacteria, genetics, infectious disease and its history, etc should probably, all due respect, study up on it a bit, preferably prior to posting anti-science screeds. City Guy gets lambasted for posting (supposedly) uninformed opinions on cattle. Shouldn't uninformed opinions in other areas, like viruses and disease, be held to the same standard?

 

[D2Cat]

Boondocks, you mention " We will always have viruses and bacteria. And they will always spread; they are quite literally engineered specifically to do so, with amazingly intricate structures and functions."

I am quite simple. Can you give me some reference to who engineered these viruses and bacterial to always spread? And if they engineered them to spread, and then later figure that's not good, can't they re-engineer them to not spread?

I keep scratching my head like Columbo use to!

 

[Margonme]

Boondocks, you mention " We will always have viruses and bacteria. And they will always spread; they are quite literally engineered specifically to do so, with amazingly intricate structures and functions."

I am quite simple. Can you give me some reference to who engineered these viruses and bacterial to always spread? And if they engineered them to spread, and then later figure that's not good, can't they re-engineer them to not spread?

I keep scratching my head like Columbo use to!

I am not Boondocks but I can help.

Organisms including viruses and bacteria adapt to their environment. They evolve in a manner that provides the best chance to propagate and perpetuate the species. In regard to Boondocks statement, viruses and bacteria have the best odds of propagating if they can spread and increase their numbers. Boondocks is not implying that a "person" engineered viruses or bacteria to spread. The influence of environment and the mechanism of adaptation is the force that improves their ability to spread. Fundamentally, the more they can spread, the better chance they have to perpetuate the species.

In the science of biology, the most fundamental purpose of an organism including mankind, IS PERPETUATION OF THE SPECIES.

 

[boondocks]

Boondocks, you mention " We will always have viruses and bacteria. And they will always spread; they are quite literally engineered specifically to do so, with amazingly intricate structures and functions."

I am quite simple. Can you give me some reference to who engineered these viruses and bacterial to always spread? And if they engineered them to spread, and then later figure that's not good, can't they re-engineer them to not spread?

I keep scratching my head like Columbo use to!

A-ha!!!! That's the question, isn't it? And not "simple" at all! Some would say whatever deity created everything also created the ability of viruses and bacteria to spread; others would say evolutionary pressure over eons and epochs led to the adaptations in structure and biochemical "make-up" (no, not that kind, I'm talking Periodic Table kind) which, say, allow viruses to very sneakily enter your body's cells then hijack your own genetic material to grab things they need in order to be able to replicate themselves; before (and I'm simplifying greatly) then busting out of those cells and spreading yet further in your body. When you then, say, sneeze, those viruses then go airborne (or land on surfaces) and find their way to some other person's orifices and then to the, say, cells of their lungs.

Those who are literal Creationists can answer better than I can whether G-d could simply decide to make them not spread. But do keep in mind that many helpful things come out of spreading bacteria and viruses. Ever take an antibiotic and get an upset stomach? That's because it not only killed off the "bad" bugs, it killed off your "gut microbiota" as well--the bazillion bacteria that help keep your digestive tract moving along! There are many other ways that bacteria and our bodies are in "symbiosis", working together.
And for any who think science and religion are diametrically opposed, I know more than one scientist who may not believe in a literal interpretation of the bible but who stand in wonder at the intricacy of it all and certainly leave the door open for some sort of the divine. See, eg, Francis Collins, a devout Christian (and one of the Human Genome sequencers) who, in 2009, none other than Obama appointed as head of the National Institutes of Health, where he still is. He's written a book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.
Now folks, we're treading dangerous ground here, so please keep it respectful...

 

[Margonme]

Boondocks,

I beat you by 5 minutes but you were typing probably as I was posting.

I would add this - I would avoid the word "engineering". Organisms are not engineered. They adapt. Good example is bacteria adapting to antibiotics by evolving resistance.

 

[True Grit Farms]

There needs to be government science, and there deffinatly needs to be the ability to respond rapidly to pandemics. More people died from flue following WW1 than from fighting.

There also needs to be a realisation that messing with genetics Is not is simple. Genes are simply single switches for a single trait, or we would have a much easier time breeding cattle. This is why GMOs are a bad idea unless you are selling the seed. To get herbicide tolerance you have to loose something, and that would appear to be some nutritional changes and less drought tolerance. However as this is big businesses idea information is not definitive.

And my great-grandmother was one of them.
TG thinks if we "just" "close the borders" no diseases will spread. The Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918 was spread by our soldiers returning from the war. TG, are we not going to post any more soldiers anywhere? Are we not going to be allowed to leave the country? We will always have viruses and bacteria. And they will always spread; they are quite literally engineered specifically to do so, with amazingly intricate structures and functions.
And even if we COULD just put the whole country in a bubble, no one allowed to come or go, there's that pesky little mutation thing that we'd still have to worry about...
Bottom line, folks who know absolutely nothing about viruses, bacteria, genetics, infectious disease and its history, etc should probably, all due respect, study up on it a bit, preferably prior to posting anti-science screeds. City Guy gets lambasted for posting (supposedly) uninformed opinions on cattle. Shouldn't uninformed opinions in other areas, like viruses and disease, be held to the same standard?

You right though I know nothing about science or diseases. But as a nation we gain very little for the money taxpayers spend on science anymore. Scientists are bought and paid for by the highest bidder, and will do and say anything for a dollar.
Just Google "government money wasted on science" and there's page after page of the government wasting money on science studies.

 

[jedstivers]

I married into a family that's 100% city folk. Can't relate to anyone and they can't relate to me but they like the beef.

We were playing Taboo at Christmas and one of the cards I couldn't guess was some designer clothes brand name. Son in law says "You don't know what THAT IS!"? I replied that I was not gay. Had we been I the farm I would have grabbed an impact wrench and said "Do you know what this is"?

You could tell him this cowboy does not even know what a taboo card game is.
But I do know about post hole diggers, tractors, and things like castrating certain unfit males to protect the gene pool from further degradation.

Me either, never heard of such a game.

 

[Margonme]

True Grit stated:
But as a nation we gain very little for the money taxpayers spend on science anymore. Scientists are bought and paid for by the highest bidder, and will do and say anything for a dollar.
Just Google "and there's page after page of the government wasting money on science studies.

I Googled: "government money wasted on science" .

What I found was not very quantitative. Several "lists" came up including "the Tom Coburn list" . You are correct that government funds frivolous scientific research. Obviously, funding to garner or payback political favors through patronage. Although any money wasted on frivolous research is unwarranted, I did not find the relative amounts.

I also looked up funding for medical research. On a quantitative basis, spending in 2012 was:

50 billion public
70 billion private.

I did not find qualitative information. I admire academia and my son has spent his adult life in medical research and now oversees international clinical studies for Eli Lilly so I am bias.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I also looked up funding for medical research. On a quantitative basis, spending in 2012 was:

50 billion public
70 billion private.

This is for only one year? And for medical research only? Government spending on science studies goes way beyond the medical field. That's very excessive and a big if not total waste of taxpayers dollars. IMO
The $70,000,000,000.00 dollars that that was spent in the private sector will reap benefits for those companies for along time. Drug prices and technology fees are very high and quite excessive IMO. But I have the choice of spending my money on those products if I choose to. I fully support private funding for scientific studies of all kinds, we need it. But the government has no right to waste our money on R&D with out of controlled spending. Even with our new POTUS, private business will lead the way and always get the most bang for their buck.

 

[Margonme]

I also looked up funding for medical research. On a quantitative basis, spending in 2012 was:

50 billion public
70 billion private.

This is for only one year? And for medical research only? Government spending on science studies goes way beyond the medical field. That's very excessive and a big if not total waste of taxpayers dollars. IMO
The $70,000,000,000.00 dollars that that was spent in the private sector will reap benefits for those companies for along time. Drug prices and technology fees are very high and quite excessive IMO. But I have the choice of spending my money on those products if I choose to. I fully support private funding for scientific studies of all kinds, we need it. But the government has no right to waste our money on R&D with out of controlled spending. Even with our new POTUS, private business will lead the way and always get the most bang for their buck.

I acknowledge your opinion and I share it for the most part. Where we disagree is probably more related to the advancement of science that may not have any immediate commercial value. For example, you would not support research to advance our understanding of evolution. I would. Having said that, you make a good point about the cost of research that does not have any immediate commercial value at at time when our fiscal house is in disarray.

 

[True Grit Farms]

How important is evolution to our safety and well being? If you give government a loop hole they'll take and sped money like a drunken sailor. If there's an epidemic and HUMAN health is at stake the government should jump in, but I have my doubts there also. I'm at least 99.9 percent sure we have a cure for cancer and the buck is just being passed around. There's way more money in treating cancer than curing cancer. Look how quickly the government and private business cured or put AIDS into remission in this country.

 

[Margonme]

How important is evolution to our safety and well being? If you give government a loop hole they'll take and sped money like a drunken sailor. If there's an epidemic and HUMAN health is at stake the government should jump in, but I have my doubts there also. I'm at least 99.9 percent sure we have a cure for cancer and the buck is just being passed around. There's way more money in treating cancer than curing cancer. Look how quickly the government and private business cured or put AIDS into remission in this country.

There is no cure for cancer, Grit. You would have a better chance of hiding your bull in your bedroom than hiding a cure for cancer if one existed.

 

[greybeard]

The only 100% 'cure' for cancer is the graveyard and I'm not even sure about it then.

 

[Margonme]

The only 100% 'cure' for cancer is the graveyard and I'm not even sure about it then.

Sadly, true. My son has a decade of cancer research under his belt. I enjoy talking to him about it. Cancer is a very broadly used term. Any cell of the body can be the site of a cancer.

Cancer has its beginning at the molecular level of the cell. A screw up at the atomic level in any cell of the body and you have the making of a cancer. Clint told me everyone will get cancer if they live long enough.

Grit, the reason cancer has no cure - because you don't know you got it until the only option is treatment, not cure.