SAV America Topic Locked

[Bright Raven]

For example: the black buzzard discussions on another thread: commercial producers need mama cows that have smarts and can deal with buzzards during the calving process and they need a calf that can be up and traveling in 20 minutes or less. That is not gained by many of the current fads and promotions. And to round it out, we create some buzzard issues by feeding cows to calve in the daytime. So it is not just purebred fads and other side venues that impact commercial folks.

I have a small registered herd. I post a lot of pictures, so most of the regulars know my cattle. Probably 90 % of the standing cows in my herd are AI sired. I have the unique circumstances of seeing 75 % of my calves born. Rarely does it take more than 10 minutes for a calf to be up nursing. I had black vulture issues this year and none of my cows had to be taught to chase them off. In fact, they were so preoccupied with chasing buzzards that I got into the game and gave them some assistance using age old technology. Lol

I have 7 ex-show girls in my herd and their calves are up and nursing in minutes. In fact, I am in awe of the vigor my calves exhibit.

I take good care of my cattle but they still live outside in the weather 365 days a year. They still have to travel steep hillsides. They still have to function on predominantly fescue forage. They still have to stay healthy. They still have to have good feet.

Fertility: for the fourth year I have bred every cow back via AI within a 60 day breeding season and 60 days postpartum.

Painting with a broad brush and generalizations deserves a caution. Not saying you don't have a valid message but talk is cheap.

 

[dbird33]

And what you are telling me is that you have a real world and end market perspective, experience and wisdom. The problems come down to commercial producers when cattle that were bred for price, fame, pride or promotion, were created for the show ring or were freak enough to gain notoriety get blended into the seed stock side to create less useful offspring for use as commercial breeders or sires. For example: the black buzzard discussions on another thread: commercial producers need mama cows that have smarts and can deal with buzzards during the calving process and they need a calf that can be up and traveling in 20 minutes or less. That is not gained by many of the current fads and promotions. And to round it out, we create some buzzard issues by feeding cows to calve in the daytime. So it is not just purebred fads and other side venues that impact commercial folks.
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I think you have some really good points here. I definitely think folks are getting a little too wild on growth outliers and sacrificing a lot of things to keep that train moving in one direction. Feet, overall structural soundness, and fertility come to mind as some of the sacrifices being made in the push for more growth.

With regard to the black buzzard discussion. I had never heard about feeding times affecting calving times. Just researched it and may start feeding the calvers on my way to work instead of on my way home in the afternoon. Really good information.
The first study I saw, with about 1300 cows in the experiment, shows you can make a 25% swing by feeding in the am vs the pm. The calf I lost to buzzards this year was a 55lb calf that we think came breech on a heifer. May have been dead to start with, but I know the buzzards didn't do the cow or calf any favors.

 

[CattleMan1920]

There are so many realms to the cattle industry though. We all breed for profit. That profit is made in many different ways. Our own operation is so diverse. We need replacements, we need fats. When we weaned, I needed pounds at weaning. When we went to finishing, I needed carcass and $B.

And what you are telling me is that you have a real world and end market perspective, experience and wisdom. The problems come down to commercial producers when cattle that were bred for price, fame, pride or promotion, were created for the show ring or were freak enough to gain notoriety get blended into the seed stock side to create less useful offspring for use as commercial breeders or sires. For example: the black buzzard discussions on another thread: commercial producers need mama cows that have smarts and can deal with buzzards during the calving process and they need a calf that can be up and traveling in 20 minutes or less. That is not gained by many of the current fads and promotions. And to round it out, we create some buzzard issues by feeding cows to calve in the daytime. So it is not just purebred fads and other side venues that impact commercial folks.

Ebenezer, you may choose not to believe me, but this has been an observance in my herd, and one that I value. The black vultures are a real nuisance here, and they lurk, just waiting for the chance to pounce on a calf. I've seen them where they are walking with their wings out most of the way heading toward the calf like something out of a movie. Well, my younger heifers have nothing to do with this, even if they don't have a calf. I've watched a couple of my more lively ones run toward them with their head down trying to get them to leave, but here is the interesting part, there was usually a cow with a calf nearby. It seemed like the heifers were trying to help out the cow in some way. I've also seen the cow get protective as well. Although it's sometimes hard to work on the calf, I far prefer an "overprotective" cow versus one that is completely lackadaisical. We deal with coyotes and vultures, and a momma cow that walks off with her head up her rear can spell disaster for a very young calf. Luckily, nearly all of our mommas are protective in that nature, especially the older ones.

As for feeding to calve in daytime, we do that so we can see what's going on. A lot of stuff happens after the lights go out, and we have increased our survivability rates exponentially by feeding a grain ration to cows around 10:00-11:00 p.m. that are near calving. They almost always have that calf in the daytime. Not to mention if you have an unforeseen issue where you may need help from a vet. I don't know too many that will come help out a cow at 2:00 in the morning.

 

[jehosofat]

It's a good thing most cows aren't as soft as their owners. :lol:

 

[CattleMan1920]

It's a good thing most cows aren't as soft as their owners. :lol:

Yeah, I agree. I personally could not lay on wet and muddy ground for weeks on end, be pounded with several inches of rain at 60 degrees only to be frozen hours later in the teens, then back up a few days later to the 50-60's with more rain. Over and over again, week after week.

I look at my cattle each day and say "you all live a really sh.tty life when you really think about it" So I feel bad for them and do the only thing I know that will help them some, I give them proper nutrition.

I'll never understand the producer that actively works AGAINST their cows to "toughen em up" The other night I watched a special on the first Vikings to land in North America. They built structures that were earthen and resembled the shape of most barns, rectangular in nature. Now those Vikings were some tough sons of biscuits, but they said on the show that they brought their stock inside when the weather was rough. They had enough sense to realize even back then that everything has it's limits, and that those animals were valuable assets to them.

If you read about the history of Charolais, they were pretty pampered back in the day in Europe. Far more so than how the cattle are treated here on Branded, and I'm sure elsewhere.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Guess we see things vastly different. I look at my cows a say a prayer when I load them out to sell. I've been to the kill plant.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Damit...who made Branded quit this time?

I was hoping you would come in as backup for me, like the Alamo. People were accusing me of being another member who was starting sh.t. I mean I start sh..t but it's cattle related, and I I'm fully prepared to take the backlash. This other member was putting down Lithuanian Farmer, and was actively trying to cause problems for me. That's why I said "I'm outta here" on the other thread.

A good argument is fine as long as we can keep it cattle related. When politics are introduced, that's when I stand up and walk out of the room.

If Cattle Today were a saloon, I think there would be repairs going on daily, and lot's of bar stools and bottles would be broken over each other's head. There would be a brawl daily. It must be the weather we are all dealing with that has us so much on edge.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Guess we see things vastly different. I look at my cows a say a prayer when I load them out to sell. I've been to the kill plant.

I know where they end up.

I'm saying that if you see them as employees which they are, why not take care of them? They are assets at the end of the day. Don't change the oil in your truck for 30K miles and see what happens. Some folks see their cattle like that, and then complain when they are dead as a doornail out in the field from malnutrition.

Lots of people in my area are sh...ting a brick trying to figure out how to keep their cattle alive until the grass comes on strong. But by then, what happened to their fertility rates, how many months does it take to rebuild that condition on the cow, how many calves were lost? People in my county seemed to have been caught with their pants down this winter, completely unprepared for the weather we have been dealt, which has been nothing short of a walloping.

 

[jehosofat]

If Cattle Today were a saloon, I think there would be repairs going on daily, and lot's of bar stools and bottles would be broken over each other's head. There would be a brawl daily.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm in. :lol:

 

[M-5]

If Cattle Today were a saloon, I think there would be repairs going on daily, and lot's of bar stools and bottles would be broken over each other's head. There would be a brawl daily.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm in. :lol:

I wouldn't be a fair fight. Iffn you know what I mean.

 

[Gators Rule]

For example: the black buzzard discussions on another thread: commercial producers need mama cows that have smarts and can deal with buzzards during the calving process and they need a calf that can be up and traveling in 20 minutes or less. That is not gained by many of the current fads and promotions. And to round it out, we create some buzzard issues by feeding cows to calve in the daytime. So it is not just purebred fads and other side venues that impact commercial folks.

BUZZARDS! ARGHH....!!

My female pit bull is scared to death of cows (by design), but she is the one who chases the buzzards away, or at least she used to chase them (to catch and kill). 10 weeks ago she took off after one sitting on a post, and of course, it flew off, but when Maggie tried putting on the brakes like a reining horse would, she blew the tendons (what we would call our ACL) in her right back leg. Vet recommended surgery at Blue Pearl. Word to anyone who experiences this happening to your dog....ask for the price before the surgery. $4700 later, Maggie is finally walking on her back legs again, with a slight limp, and only has 7 more weeks of light duty therapy left. So now, my wife says all buzzards are shot, not chased, and Maggie is to never be off her leash again!

 

[Gators Rule]

People were accusing me of being another member who was starting sh.t. I mean I start sh..t but it's cattle related, and I I'm fully prepared to take the backlash.

Just 2 points...

1. On a bulletin board of ANY kind, someone posing or being accused of posing as another user, is in many cases, the highest form of flattery, so just go with it.

2. I'm not so sure you were prepared for the backlash, as you became defensive of the posing situation, and had the America thread locked up. Not being mean, but more preparation is necessary. :cboy:

On a side note, we've had bad weather patterns in the past, so I get what you're saying about the constant deluge of rain, snow, mud, etc.... Really sucks to be unprepared, as the cows are the ones that really suffer the most!

 

[sim.-ang.king]

People were accusing me of being another member who was starting sh.t. I mean I start sh..t but it's cattle related, and I I'm fully prepared to take the backlash.

Forgive my suspicion of you being another member, but three relatively new members posting pretty close to the samething, and 100% agreeing, warrents my suspicion. The multi account single user effect happens quite often on internet forums.
It does seem odd you keep bring it up since there was only like 4 post out of 200 that questioned it?

Keep acting tough, but copping out, and having a thread locked because you didn't like what people had to say, is pretty low.

 

[Ky hills]

This topic is taking a very informative turn as well, lots of knowledgable folks with some good insights all the way around. I guess sometimes things have to get torn up a bit to get the substance of the issues.
Ebenezer made a good point that different programs have different goals, and that mamagement is an issue for both registered and commercial. Branded is correct as well in that predators are a major issue around our part of the world, coyotes are extremely thickly populated. The black buzzards have become a real threat to cattle over the last several years. The first time I saw the phenomenon occurring I had no idea what was happening. I thought that the buzzards were just congregated waiting to get the afterbirth. There were probably as many as 50 in a wide circle around the cow and calf. The calf was up, and like Branded said they had there wings spread out as if to enclose the circle. The cow was violently charging at them. If there were just a few she could have likely kept them off, but that many there was no way. In the late winter and spring they seem to fly around scouting around several at a time. On a totally embarrassing note our city cemetery is also a buzzard roost. The trees are full of them at night. I have seen many mornings in which they fly over from there over the course of several minutes there is a steady stream of them. I have also seen large numbers of them congregating near dark close to the city of Mt. Sterling about 12 miles from here. Another large roost is close to the Red River Gorge around 30 miles away.
Raven mentioned his Simmentals giving birth quickly and calves being up quickly, that is a good trait. When I had Charolais, some of the ones we had required much more intervention as Branded noted. Those that required the most assistance were as Ebenezer noted ones that had been bred with showring in mind, and extreme frames, high birthweight and low milk were prevalent in those lines at that time. It was not uncommon for a large calf to be born that required help in standing as they were huge framed and slow to get up. Not practical at all in an environment with predators. I have found Angus and Herefords both to be more proficient in that area. I can recommend the Angus Bull NBar Prime Time as a bull to sire calving ease and fast to get up and going calves. The ones we had if you didn't get to them within a half hour they would be so fast it was impossible to catch them.

 

[Ebenezer]

Painting with a broad brush and generalizations deserves a caution. Not saying you don't have a valid message but talk is cheap.

Totally unnecessary. Get a grudge on someone near you so that you can throw eggs at his mailbox or whatever you do locally. Otherwise cut the cutie comments. Thanks.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

If Cattle Today were a saloon, I think there would be repairs going on daily, and lot's of bar stools and bottles would be broken over each other's head. There would be a brawl daily.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm in. :lol:

I wouldn't be a fair fight. Iffn you know what I mean.

Coward with a gun?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

People were accusing me of being another member who was starting sh.t. I mean I start sh..t but it's cattle related, and I I'm fully prepared to take the backlash.

Forgive my suspicion of you being another member, but three relatively new members posting pretty close to the samething, and 100% agreeing, warrents my suspicion. The multi account single user effect happens quite often on internet forums.
It does seem odd you keep bring it up since there was only like 4 post out of 200 that questioned it?

Keep acting tough, but copping out, and having a thread locked because you didn't like what people had to say, is pretty low.

I thought the same thing myself at first but in at least two of the instances the "new" users had actually been low activity users who registered years ago.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

People were accusing me of being another member who was starting sh.t. I mean I start sh..t but it's cattle related, and I I'm fully prepared to take the backlash.

Forgive my suspicion of you being another member, but three relatively new members posting pretty close to the samething, and 100% agreeing, warrents my suspicion. The multi account single user effect happens quite often on internet forums.
It does seem odd you keep bring it up since there was only like 4 post out of 200 that questioned it?

Keep acting tough, but copping out, and having a thread locked because you didn't like what people had to say, is pretty low.

I thought the same thing myself at first but in at least two of the instances the "new" users had actually been low activity users who registered years ago.

Bar23 joined January 2019, and was the main user in question at the time.

 

[Bright Raven]

Painting with a broad brush and generalizations deserves a caution. Not saying you don't have a valid message but talk is cheap.

Totally unnecessary. Get a grudge on someone near you so that you can throw eggs at his mailbox or whatever you do locally. Otherwise cut the cutie comments. Thanks.

Allow me to soften my message.

I am not disparaging your message. My concern is that you imply that seedstock, purebred breeders, etc do not appreciate proper breeding practices to produce cattle that function and perform in the pasture.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Forgive my suspicion of you being another member, but three relatively new members posting pretty close to the samething, and 100% agreeing, warrents my suspicion. The multi account single user effect happens quite often on internet forums.
It does seem odd you keep bring it up since there was only like 4 post out of 200 that questioned it?

Keep acting tough, but copping out, and having a thread locked because you didn't like what people had to say, is pretty low.

I thought the same thing myself at first but in at least two of the instances the "new" users had actually been low activity users who registered years ago.

Bar23 joined January 2019, and was the main user in question at the time.

Oh yeah, loved that guy. Is he still active?