Right to work?

[ez14.]

i've seen the mine wars and that is where most of my anti union thinking can from i knew i didn't like the union before that but that show got my blood pressure up! there was a bunch of people who didn't like what they had so instead of working for something better they stole what they wanted they disrupted the employee employer balance (which is not always right but will right itself so long as there is freedom to quit and freedom to fire) the union is evil has always been evil and as long as its around will always be evil that's really where the entitled attitude that is so often ridiculed on here really came from instead of working to make things right they just had a union come in and give them what they wanted! moving away from one of those coal mines would not have been easy but they put themselves in that tough spot it was nobody's job except theirs to get them out of that tough spot! if they didn't like it they should have moved on would it have been easy? no! would it have been impossible? absolutely not!

you will never find me working for a union! and if i were a business owner i would fire anybody who even said the word union!

This shows a complete lack of historical knowledge. You may not like the unions of today, but they were absolutely necessary. To say that these families were able to just up and move is a misunderstanding of history. We live in a wonderful time where a person can get on a computer and get a job across America, and the safety regulations we have today are in place because of those early unions.

People have been moving since the beginning of time. In search of a better life
Check your history.
Employees banding against the company that they signed on with. To change it to fit them is the same as immigrants coming to a country and then campaigning to change it's rules to fit them.
Most safety regulations come from the result of a overly litigious culture. Rewarding idiots for stepping in holes and such. Or from government agencies..needing to be able to say they did something.
Many of these regulations are senseless, counterproductive, and actually create dangerous situations.
A man is responsible for his on safety.

one of my favorite quotes comes from my dads employer "production comes first safety comes natural"

 

[Caustic Burno]

You are showing your youth,nativity and lack of knowledge of historical facts that modern America was built on slave labor until the late 1800's and the working man started fighting back.
Live in your fantasy world the lifestyle you have today was paid for dearly.
Safety follows nothing it was forced onto companies by unions and through the government via the union.
Be it a union company or not they had to improve working conditions and wages to retain skilled labor.
We have all benefited from organized labor.

 

[TexasBred]

I'm a union worker (steel worker) and the state just passed the right to work law in ky. Unions do protect the useless $hits , but at least at my work it keeps the company from sou g anything they want we have a process for everything and it helps keep things running more efficiently this not only benefits workers but everyone in the facility. Right to work is just union busting 101.

We're a right to work state but have unions as well, often working side by side.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I'm a union worker (steel worker) and the state just passed the right to work law in ky. Unions do protect the useless $hits , but at least at my work it keeps the company from sou g anything they want we have a process for everything and it helps keep things running more efficiently this not only benefits workers but everyone in the facility. Right to work is just union busting 101.

We're a right to work state but have unions as well, often working side by side.

I disagree it's union busting the union has done that to themselves.
I started out a laborer in the OCAW climbed the union ranks sat at the negotiation table as a union negotiator as well a company man.
I watched the trade unions destroy themselves today the carpenters on strike tomorrow the machinist going from totally using union contractors that wouldn't work to non union that would.

 

[Craig Miller]

i've seen the mine wars and that is where most of my anti union thinking can from i knew i didn't like the union before that but that show got my blood pressure up! there was a bunch of people who didn't like what they had so instead of working for something better they stole what they wanted they disrupted the employee employer balance (which is not always right but will right itself so long as there is freedom to quit and freedom to fire) the union is evil has always been evil and as long as its around will always be evil that's really where the entitled attitude that is so often ridiculed on here really came from instead of working to make things right they just had a union come in and give them what they wanted! moving away from one of those coal mines would not have been easy but they put themselves in that tough spot it was nobody's job except theirs to get them out of that tough spot! if they didn't like it they should have moved on would it have been easy? no! would it have been impossible? absolutely not!

you will never find me working for a union! and if i were a business owner i would fire anybody who even said the word union!

This shows a complete lack of historical knowledge. You may not like the unions of today, but they were absolutely necessary. To say that these families were able to just up and move is a misunderstanding of history. We live in a wonderful time where a person can get on a computer and get a job across America, and the safety regulations we have today are in place because of those early unions.

it would not have been easy but harder thing have been done it takes grit and determination but could have been done

I agree with you. My grandparents moved up north for work. Then back down here. Then to orlando. Then up north. It was not impossible if you were willing to do it. He has always told me if you have a choice stay out of the union.

 

[kenny thomas]

Your clueless there my dad roughnecked in the Goose Creek boom
they did it because they were starving.
My uncle built the wooden dericks.
Working conditions in this country didn't start any noticeable change until after the war with the quantum leap late 60's when the government stepped in and then in the
70's with the Erisa retirement act.
Again today's working conditions were bought and paid for by previous generations though politics or force.
You couldn't find a depression era working man that wasn't a democrat that was the parties base until the 70's and they divested to special interest groups and the red and blue started switching roles to capture votes.

That's right. Folks gotta learn their history. The fact that maybe the union pendulum swung too far for a decade or two when US corporations didn't have any international competition doesn't negate the tremendous impact those men and women had in fighting for today's working conditions. The (70's era) unions maybe did make a mistake in not seeing early enough that the world was changing:that others were nipping at the US manufacturing base's heel; and that it was time to tighten belts.
However, I think management bears some fault for that too. Growing up, my dad worked in the steel mill (electrician) and when Japanese steel started coming in, they were told repeatedly that they had to take pay cuts or the mill would close. What happened to management salaries during that time period? Anyone think they went down in solidarity with their workers? lol

:bs:

our modern working conditions are owed to true business men who know how to get the most bang for their buck!

henry ford who was one of the first to use a 5 day work week and the first to use 8 hour days and doubled the average pay from about $2.35 a day to $5 a day this all happened from about 1916 to 1922 long before going union some say the policy was out of kindness but i believe it was to be more profitable as production skyrocketed after the changes! ford motor company went union in 1941 after a long battle with the the union which include sit in strikes so strikebreakers couldn't come in and work (i would have just torched the whole d-amn plant)

ford motor company is proof of the balance between employers and employees a business cant run without employees and employees cant make it without pay from a employer!

and if those men couldn't provide for their family they should not have started it! it is extremely irresponsible to start a family that you cant take care of!!!!

In my lifetime I have seen men work for $3 a day but they had a wood frame house that the snow would blow through the cracks owned by the employeer to live in. Union helped those conditions.

 

[boondocks]

This shows a complete lack of historical knowledge. You may not like the unions of today, but they were absolutely necessary. To say that these families were able to just up and move is a misunderstanding of history. We live in a wonderful time where a person can get on a computer and get a job across America, and the safety regulations we have today are in place because of those early unions.

it would not have been easy but harder thing have been done it takes grit and determination but could have been done

I agree with you. My grandparents moved up north for work. Then back down here. Then to orlando. Then up north. It was not impossible if you were willing to do it. He has always told me if you have a choice stay out of the union.

My 12 or 14 yo coal mining grandad couldn't move. Was feeding his 5 younger siblings.
"Moving" only works when there are better opportunities somewhere else. When the unions were trying to organize the mine fields, the mine owners collectively worked together to refuse them better wages, living conditions, or even rudimentary safety. If you tried to bargain for better pay, you were blackballed if not beaten or killed.
Let me ask the union-bashers and history-deniers this: have you seen/heard/read about the working conditions in Third World countries? ie, the buildings in Bangladesh that collapse; the working conditions so onerous that people at the Apple vendors' plants in China throw themselves off the balconies etc etc? No unions!
Do you really think it's in human nature to be good and kind to your workers, and the early US business owners were fair and equitable? My gosh, have you not read about the building of the Transcontinental Railroad, to take just one example? That whole "moving for a better job" thing didn't work out so well. The Irish workers wanted better wages, so the owners instead brought in shiploads of desperate Chinese workers, many of whom died on the job. Many of the workers were left unpaid when the railroad was completed. Meanwhile, the politicians and railroad owners got fat by doublebilling and bilking.
I really mean no disrepect, but some of y'all did crossword puzzles or played hangman during history class or something...

 

[Craig Miller]

it would not have been easy but harder thing have been done it takes grit and determination but could have been done

I agree with you. My grandparents moved up north for work. Then back down here. Then to orlando. Then up north. It was not impossible if you were willing to do it. He has always told me if you have a choice stay out of the union.

My 12 or 14 yo coal mining grandad couldn't move. Was feeding his 5 younger siblings.
"Moving" only works when there are better opportunities somewhere else. When the unions were trying to organize the mine fields, the mine owners collectively worked together to refuse them better wages, living conditions, or even rudimentary safety. If you tried to bargain for better pay, you were blackballed if not beaten or killed.
Let me ask the union-bashers and history-deniers this: have you seen/heard/read about the working conditions in Third World countries? ie, the buildings in Bangladesh that collapse; the working conditions so onerous that people at the Apple vendors' plants in China throw themselves off the balconies etc etc? No unions!
Do you really think it's in human nature to be good and kind to your workers, and the early US business owners were fair and equitable? My gosh, have you not read about the building of the Transcontinental Railroad, to take just one example? That whole "moving for a better job" thing didn't work out so well. The Irish workers wanted better wages, so the owners instead brought in shiploads of desperate Chinese workers, many of whom died on the job. Many of the workers were left unpaid when the railroad was completed. Meanwhile, the politicians and railroad owners got fat by doublebilling and bilking.
I really mean no disrepect, but some of y'all did crossword puzzles or played hangman during history class or something...

People use the same excuses to this day. I can't move for a better job because of blah blah blah. I can't drive that far to work because blah blah blah. I get sick of hearing it. I see where unions were needed back in the day. I don't see where they are doing anything to this day except lining their own pockets.

 

[Jogeephus]

I have had little experience with union people so my understanding is limited. However, several years ago the BIL of a friend was complaining about how his company was downsizing and moving to Mexico. He said he was reduced to working only three days a week and he couldn't support his family on this so I offered him a job during his off days. The work was hard manual labor in some rough conditions but the pay was what I thought exceptional so I was doing it six days a week so it wasn't like I was asking him to do something that I wouldn't do myself. He lasted three days even though he made more than he would have had he worked all week at his factory job. The work was beneath him I guess.

My SIL was union. She made good money but was constantly complaining about how she wasn't paid enough and how they were going to strike about this or that. Her company moved to Germany and now she only speaks of how good she had it.

I've learned that good money doesn't insure good help but good help deserves good money if you intend to keep them.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I have had little experience with union people so my understanding is limited. However, several years ago the BIL of a friend was complaining about how his company was downsizing and moving to Mexico. He said he was reduced to working only three days a week and he couldn't support his family on this so I offered him a job during his off days. The work was hard manual labor in some rough conditions but the pay was what I thought exceptional so I was doing it six days a week so it wasn't like I was asking him to do something that I wouldn't do myself. He lasted three days even though he made more than he would have had he worked all week at his factory job. The work was beneath him I guess.

My SIL was union. She made good money but was constantly complaining about how she wasn't paid enough and how they were going to strike about this or that. Her company moved to Germany and now she only speaks of how good she had it.

I've learned that good money doesn't insure good help but good help deserves good money if you intend to keep them.

I have worked both sides as well as owning a business so my glasses are not rose tinted. I have seen the good and bad of each side of the fence.
The thing I see today is the younger generation doesn't see there was a time in this country a decent safe job was very hard to come by. The last real migration occurred in the 70's.
They don't grasp migration to migrate does insure a better life. We are just a heartbeat away from the 30's or the 70's and that was a blip compared a starving country.
The government today steps in to save there a$$.
Just ask boogie about the 70's when the Texas oil boom was overrun by northerns looking for any work.

 

[ez14.]

You are showing your youth,nativity and lack of knowledge of historical facts that modern America was built on slave labor until the late 1800's and the working man started fighting back.
Live in your fantasy world the lifestyle you have today was paid for dearly.
Safety follows nothing it was forced onto companies by unions and through the government via the union.
Be it a union company or not they had to improve working conditions and wages to retain skilled labor.
We have all benefited from organized labor.

you are showing your socialism!

i have always thought highly of you CB but your supporting of theft and dishonesty is making that a bit harder!

have you ever watched "the men who built america"? i highly recommend it to anyone! watch that show and learn a little before telling me there was no opportunity for a better life for poor people in this country before the unions! there are several examples of men picking themselves up out of poverty to be very well off people! (without the dishonesty of a union)

and if i don't know anything about history where did the 5 day work week come from or the 8 hour days or $5 a day wages?

Henry Fords view on the union (i agree completely)

Labor unions
Ford was adamantly against labor unions. He explained his views on unions in Chapter 18 of My Life and Work.[33] He thought they were too heavily influenced by some leaders who, despite their ostensible good motives, would end up doing more harm than good for workers. Most wanted to restrict productivity as a means to foster employment, but Ford saw this as self-defeating because, in his view, productivity was necessary for any economic prosperity to exist.

He believed that productivity gains that obviated certain jobs would nevertheless stimulate the larger economy and thus grow new jobs elsewhere, whether within the same corporation or in others. Ford also believed that union leaders had a perverse incentive to foment perpetual socio-economic crisis as a way to maintain their own power. Meanwhile, he believed that smart managers had an incentive to do right by their workers, because doing so would maximize their own profits. Ford did acknowledge, however, that many managers were basically too bad at managing to understand this fact. But Ford believed that eventually, if good managers such as he could fend off the attacks of misguided people from both left and right (i.e., both socialists and bad-manager reactionaries), the good managers would create a socio-economic system wherein neither bad management nor bad unions could find enough support to continue existing.

it would not have been easy but harder thing have been done it takes grit and determination but could have been done

I agree with you. My grandparents moved up north for work. Then back down here. Then to orlando. Then up north. It was not impossible if you were willing to do it. He has always told me if you have a choice stay out of the union.

My 12 or 14 yo coal mining grandad couldn't move. Was feeding his 5 younger siblings.
"Moving" only works when there are better opportunities somewhere else. When the unions were trying to organize the mine fields, the mine owners collectively worked together to refuse them better wages, living conditions, or even rudimentary safety. If you tried to bargain for better pay, you were blackballed if not beaten or killed.
Let me ask the union-bashers and history-deniers this: have you seen/heard/read about the working conditions in Third World countries? ie, the buildings in Bangladesh that collapse; the working conditions so onerous that people at the Apple vendors' plants in China throw themselves off the balconies etc etc? No unions!
Do you really think it's in human nature to be good and kind to your workers, and the early US business owners were fair and equitable? My gosh, have you not read about the building of the Transcontinental Railroad, to take just one example? That whole "moving for a better job" thing didn't work out so well. The Irish workers wanted better wages, so the owners instead brought in shiploads of desperate Chinese workers, many of whom died on the job. Many of the workers were left unpaid when the railroad was completed. Meanwhile, the politicians and railroad owners got fat by doublebilling and bilking.
I really mean no disrepect, but some of y'all did crossword puzzles or played hangman during history class or something...

i am not arguing the EXTREMELY bad working conditions or the lives lost to them! i am arguing against what you state as fact that theft was the only (and necessary) way for anything better

 

[boondocks]

i am not arguing the EXTREMELY bad working conditions or the lives lost to them! i am arguing against what you state as fact that theft was the only (and necessary) way for anything better[/quote]

I am really struggling to believe you are not just trolling here.
So, I guess when you negotiate the sale price of a cow, you are thereby stealing?
When you put in a counter-bid on a house, you are a thief?
When you don't pay the sticker price on a new car, you are a cheat?
There's not an emoji for my eyes rolling so hard they just fell out of my head, so I'll have to make do with an :roll: and a :bs:

By the way, I've been on these boards for years and have never used the BS flag until now. You earned it! :tiphat:

 

[Caustic Burno]

Ez not socialism but reality.
You ever face hard times and I mean hard times with feeding a family or getting a sick baby medical care join this thread. There was a day when kids didn't live with mommy and daddy
until they were 30 or 40 .
There were no food stamps or welfare money or medical and all the free social safety nets you enjoy today.
I actually believe in helping my fellow American also in a mans right to work or join a union so until you get into the real world you have no clue of what your talking about.
I have went hungry to pay babies medical bills, crawled to work with pneumonia because of no sick leave to feed those babies.
Watched my wives family only survive because of wild game supplied by the men of the community .
Seen her family of four kids and a widow dam near starve to death after her dad was killed at work.
There was no SS, Medicaid and no death benefits the unions got that changed.
IMO you talking like a man with a paper a$$
Your ignorance on safety at work is evident I have no clue how many deaths I investigated. Most were caused by a fellow worker being lazy leaving a trap.
When you knock on a door to tell a wife her husband was killed at work or set with her in an ER until he dies you have no idea what your talking about.
If we were in the refinery I can see I would already fired you as your attitude on safety would make you one of the most unsafe on the jodsite.
Then I would watch you bawl like a baby as I have watched grown men do as security was escorting them out.
That is about the time reality hit them they just lost a 100k job over safety.

 

[callmefence]

This shows a complete lack of historical knowledge. You may not like the unions of today, but they were absolutely necessary. To say that these families were able to just up and move is a misunderstanding of history. We live in a wonderful time where a person can get on a computer and get a job across America, and the safety regulations we have today are in place because of those early unions.

People have been moving since the beginning of time. In search of a better life
Check your history.
Employees banding against the company that they signed on with. To change it to fit them is the same as immigrants coming to a country and then campaigning to change it's rules to fit them.
Most safety regulations come from the result of a overly litigious culture. Rewarding idiots for stepping in holes and such. Or from government agencies..needing to be able to say they did something.
Many of these regulations are senseless, counterproductive, and actually create dangerous situations.
A man is responsible for his on safety.

one of my favorite quotes comes from my dads employer "production comes first safety comes natural"

I like that..think I might use it.

But ez some folks apparently need to be propped up. Can't speak or negotiate for themselves. They will make a agreement to do a certain job then whine about the work or the pay. They can't negotiate for themselves. They can't do the hard part for themselves. They need someone watching to make sure they don't hurt their dumbass... :roll: ;-)

 

[Caustic Burno]

That sounds about right if all you need an uneducated or unskilled workforce

 

[callmefence]

That sounds about right if all you need an uneducated or unskilled workforce

If they had any sense or skills , they would be writing their own check. Not bellyaxhing about whoever was good enough to give them a job.

 

[ez14.]

i am not arguing the EXTREMELY bad working conditions or the lives lost to them! i am arguing against what you state as fact that theft was the only (and necessary) way for anything better

I am really struggling to believe you are not just trolling here.
So, I guess when you negotiate the sale price of a cow, you are thereby stealing?
When you put in a counter-bid on a house, you are a thief?
When you don't pay the sticker price on a new car, you are a cheat?
There's not an emoji for my eyes rolling so hard they just fell out of my head, so I'll have to make do with an :roll: and a :bs:

By the way, I've been on these boards for years and have never used the BS flag until now. You earned it! :tiphat:[/quote]

Boondocks lets say we make an agreement for me to buy one of your cows for $1000 so you get them all rounded up in a small pen so i can pick which one i want and when i get there i only have $500 then i say i'm going to get all your cows for that much! (i assume you would say heck no) so then i stand guard around your cows and beat anybody who tries to buy them or take care of them leaving you with two choices sell all your cows to me for $500 or kill them all

would that make me a thieve???

i'm not trolling

 

[Bestoutwest]

Ez not socialism but reality.
You ever face hard times and I mean hard times with feeding a family or getting a sick baby medical care join this thread. There was a day when kids didn't live with mommy and daddy
until they were 30 or 40 .
There were no food stamps or welfare money or medical and all the free social safety nets you enjoy today.
I actually believe in helping my fellow American also in a mans right to work or join a union so until you get into the real world you have no clue of what your talking about.
I have went hungry to pay babies medical bills, crawled to work with pneumonia because of no sick leave to feed those babies.
Watched my wives family only survive because of wild game supplied by the men of the community .
Seen her family of four kids and a widow dam near starve to death after her dad was killed at work.
There was no SS, Medicaid and no death benefits the unions got that changed.
IMO you talking like a man with a paper a$$
Your ignorance on safety at work is evident I have no clue how many deaths I investigated. Most were caused by a fellow worker being lazy leaving a trap.
When you knock on a door to tell a wife her husband was killed at work or set with her in an ER until he dies you have no idea what your talking about.
If we were in the refinery I can see I would already fired you as your attitude on safety would make you one of the most unsafe on the jodsite.
Then I would watch you bawl like a baby as I have watched grown men do as security was escorting them out.
That is about the time reality hit them they just lost a 100k job over safety.

Dam-n CB! That's the most real thing I've really long time. Some people just don't understand the real world. I have read a ton of history, and the biggest lesson I've learned is that we live in a world that is the way it is because a lot of people sacrificed a whole lot.

 

[Bestoutwest]

i am not arguing the EXTREMELY bad working conditions or the lives lost to them! i am arguing against what you state as fact that theft was the only (and necessary) way for anything better

I am really struggling to believe you are not just trolling here.
So, I guess when you negotiate the sale price of a cow, you are thereby stealing?
When you put in a counter-bid on a house, you are a thief?
When you don't pay the sticker price on a new car, you are a cheat?
There's not an emoji for my eyes rolling so hard they just fell out of my head, so I'll have to make do with an :roll: and a :bs:

By the way, I've been on these boards for years and have never used the BS flag until now. You earned it! :tiphat:

Boondocks lets say we make an agreement for me to buy one of your cows for $1000 so you get them all rounded up in a small pen so i can pick which one i want and when i get there i only have $500 then i say i'm going to get all your cows for that much! (i assume you would say heck no) so then i stand guard around your cows and beat anybody who tries to buy them or take care of them leaving you with two choices sell all your cows to me for $500 or kill them all

would that make me a thieve???

i'm not trolling[/quote]

You're right, you're not trolling. You're just completely, whether it's willful or not, missing the point. Go back and read some history. Watch The Mine Wars, from PBS. Do it with an open mind. I think you'll finally see that the business man is not always so upstanding.

 

[callmefence]

Ez not socialism but reality.
You ever face hard times and I mean hard times with feeding a family or getting a sick baby medical care join this thread. There was a day when kids didn't live with mommy and daddy
until they were 30 or 40 .
There were no food stamps or welfare money or medical and all the free social safety nets you enjoy today.
I actually believe in helping my fellow American also in a mans right to work or join a union so until you get into the real world you have no clue of what your talking about.
I have went hungry to pay babies medical bills, crawled to work with pneumonia because of no sick leave to feed those babies.
Watched my wives family only survive because of wild game supplied by the men of the community .
Seen her family of four kids and a widow dam near starve to death after her dad was killed at work.
There was no SS, Medicaid and no death benefits the unions got that changed.
IMO you talking like a man with a paper a$$
Your ignorance on safety at work is evident I have no clue how many deaths I investigated. Most were caused by a fellow worker being lazy leaving a trap.
When you knock on a door to tell a wife her husband was killed at work or set with her in an ER until he dies you have no idea what your talking about.
If we were in the refinery I can see I would already fired you as your attitude on safety would make you one of the most unsafe on the jodsite.
Then I would watch you bawl like a baby as I have watched grown men do as security was escorting them out.
That is about the time reality hit them they just lost a 100k job over safety.

A grown man bawling over losing a 100,000 job is a perfect example of the kinda pussy that would be pro union...