REPLACEMENT HEIFERS! Purchase 'em or Raise 'em?

[Brandonm2]

THAT is going to be hard to beat!

 

[Campground Cattle]

THAT is going to be hard to beat!

Thats my point the price tag on the cow doesn't make it better.
Better breeding by better cattlemen with better management skills make it better. Forgot to add again must have inhaled to many gasoline fumes at work today.
Thats a Vindicator/Braxton Giant cow.

 

[Brandonm2]

THAT is going to be hard to beat!

Thats my point the price tag on the cow doesn't make it better.
Better breeding by better cattlemen with better management skills make it better. Forgot to add again must have inhaled to many gasoline fumes at work today.
Thats a Vindicator/Braxton Giant cow.

Now that we have AI, ET, AND Cloning to promulgate genetics in a speed unimaginable to past breeders AND EPDs to keep score with, the top genetics should be more affordable than ever before. I have a March Angus Journal here. The good looking donor on page 45 is supposedly valued at $150,000 (according to the ad). Great cow. I look at the pedigree and she is a Precision 1680 sired cow out of an EXT daughter. How many EXT daughters were bred to Precision??? Nothing against that cross or that cow; but there may be 50 Angus breeders who can sell me THAT combo (and no telling how many commercial cows). Price now has more to do with promotion and breeder rep. than it does with the genetics since rarity is now almost a thing of the past.

 

[Texas Ranch Man]

Hey Beefy, I dont believe Caustic raises Tigers and sells um, he buys them to produce terminal calves. I could be mistaken but from everything I have read on what he posted on the subject I think this is correct. I do the same thing. The problem with raising Tigers to sell is...only the females are worth a premium, and you have to deal with those hard to handle Bhraman Cows. I by the way have only F-1 Tigerstripe Cows, all of which I purchased. They raise one heck of a Calf.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

She does look good, and I don't by cattle from a flyer. I do a lot of research and try to buy the best that I can. There are new genetics that I really like, most are from Sandhills herd. I have always been willing to post pics of my cattle, you can go and look on my website. By performance cattle I mean REA, IMF, growth, quality udders, ect. Most of the cattle that I have bought cost around $2500, they aren't exactly what I want and will have to breed them up a little.

Like I said the pic looks good, I might change some things, but overall very nice. In my herd I want to work on a little more milk, working on big tops, I like big rears, good back legs, ample depth, large REA's and IMF's in progeny (our average this year was 4.5%), we want to produce cattle that will work in herds like yours. I have never bragged about money spent on certain cattle (haven't ever spent over 4,000), and don't think I will. I believe that buying $10,000 cows is begging to lose money, though if the right bull came across at that price I might try to buy him later in life. It sounds like most of you are commercial cattleman, which is great, but why would you spend more then $2000 on a cow regardless. I don't know, just don't feel I said anything out of line.

I have tried some braxton and victor blood, and didn't like it much up here. I know that I am not in the majority on this, but I have had both and like what I have better.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Here is a bull out of SHF Progress x a (C&L hardwood x Domino f243) cow. He is the calf on the front of the website.

This is a victorxfelton bred female. She grew fast, had great IMF, and really lacked REA and probably could use a little more top. Overall a very decent calf.

This is a HVH reba cow, and the calf is a Governor son, I have a tremendous heifer out of this cow and SHF marshal which is on my website as well. Since this picture she has gotten bigger, and she weighs around 1300lb right now, and below is that calf now.

1115lb

Is this enough pics, there are more on the website if you want to look at those.

 

[Caustic Burno]

My question is how much feed did you pour into them? I believe I read twenty pounds a day on your bull correct. I could search and find the statement.
In my books thats a loser line if they can't do it on grass nad grass only.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

We tried to feed them that much, never succeeded. We ended up feeding around 10-15lbs a day per bull. I don't know how that is losing money, if I had the grass I would run pasture year round. Next year we are going to let them run on wheat out west. The genetics that we buy are run out west on wheat and they weigh more then ours. What are your yearling weight like?

If you sell those bulls for $1750 then how is that losing money at all. We feed grain and less hay, it is more expensive but really not by that much maybe $100 per calf. If you were selling everything commercial then of course you would be waisting away money. We raise our bulls like $3000 bulls (because at some point that is where we want to be), and sell them for $1750. We are still working our way up. I will argue with you on the feeding for a long time

 

[Brandonm2]

They look good too. Are you sure that your donor: K-K 108 D Reba E M57
is not a hypotrichosis carrier?? I see Nick the Butler back there in the bottom of the pedigree and that sends up all kinds of flags.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Hey Beefy, I dont believe Caustic raises Tigers and sells um, he buys them to produce terminal calves. I could be mistaken but from everything I have read on what he posted on the subject I think this is correct. I do the same thing. The problem with raising Tigers to sell is...only the females are worth a premium, and you have to deal with those hard to handle Bhraman Cows. I by the way have only F-1 Tigerstripe Cows, all of which I purchased. They raise one heck of a Calf.

I do have some retained heifers but all are 3/4 Herf with a 1/4 Brimmer I actually like that cross a little better. The only reason they are retained that cross doesn't come trough the barn much. I still think it is a looser to retain heifers versus buying then again you can't find what you want everytime. Hide cleans up better with a terminal bull. If I can get Camp over with that camera of his I will get some pics. I will get some pics of the Herf Bulls in the pasture. Can't take the picture of the Char fraid it would break the camera that pallet head. That bull is Ugly.

 

[Caustic Burno]

We tried to feed them that much, never succeeded. We ended up feeding around 10lbs a day per bull. I don't know how that is losing money, if I had the grass I would run pasture year round. Next year we are going to let them run on wheat out west. The genetics that we buy are run out west on wheat and they weigh more then ours. What are your yearling weight like?

If you can't figure out how feeding out of a sack is a looser this is a topic for another thread.
Your weaning weight can't run with a crossbred operation.
That has always been one of the drawbacks on pure herfs or any other purebred operation is slow growth. Now you can try to blow smoke about growth rates that herf calf on grass only is going to come up a looser everytime. And I am a Hereford man.
A purebred Herf calf will never out grow a Hybred cross calf.
I got a kitten trying to BS an old tomcat.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Let me just do some quick math here 10 pounds a day out of store bought feed equals a dollar a day out of a 50 pound sack running roughly 5 dollars a sack for cheap feed. At the very least you have doubled the cost of the average cattleman to get the growth out of bull. Don't try and BS me on that filled him up either you can satisfy a cows nutritional needs on 3 pounds of feed a day but you still needed another 27 pounds of something to fill him up.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

NO, these bulls received right at an average of 13lbs of grain daily, and then received prairie hay. The feed we feed in bulk costs $3.5 per 50lbs. Our weaning weights averaged 600lbs including the heifers and steers. I think that is a good weight for just pasture. Our high end was 720lbs and the low end was 500lbs. Where did you get that I stated anything about not cross breeding, of course you should cross breed in a commercial operation. And of course I have to sell mine for more then the commercial man to make a profit, that is all common sense. How about you stick with what you like, and I won't say what you should do for your operation and country. We do things completely different, and that is fine. I agree with very little you say regarding feeding, and the same most likely applies for you about me. Lets just leave it at that

By the way our heifers averaged 883.3 yearling on hay and 4lbs of grain, pretty good growth I would say.

 

[Caustic Burno]

NO, these bulls received right at an average of 13lbs of grain daily, and then received prairie hay. The feed we feed in bulk costs $3.5 per 50lbs. Our weaning weights averaged 600lbs including the heifers and steers. I think that is a good weight for just pasture. Our high end was 720lbs and the low end was 500lbs. Where did you get that I stated anything about not cross breeding, of course you should cross breed in a commercial operation. And of course I have to sell mine for more then the commercial man to make a profit, that is all common sense. How about you stick with what you like, and I won't say what you should do for your operation and country. We do things completely different, and that is fine. I agree with very little you say regarding feeding, and the same most likely applies for you about me. Lets just leave it at that

By the way our heifers averaged 883.3 yearling on hay and 4lbs of grain, pretty good growth I would say.

2.5 daily gain on grain and hay that sucks. Heck good Hereford breeders get that out of grass only operations.
I agree we don't agree we don't agree on cattle your raising them to attract mullet. Your trying to sell cattlemen on a superior operation, if it is out of a feed bin it is far from that.
I raise them for pounds of beef on grass and grass only.
Your are the type seedstock producer the commercial cattleman wants to stay away from cause when those cows loose that grain and have to go to work they will fall apart.

oakcreekfarms wrote:
When feeding out bulls I understand that 20lbs is pretty much the norm, they get 10lbs per morning and evening. THey are at least 850lbs, I would guess closer to 900, and are Early Febuary calves. They were eating all their feed a few weeks ago, then they started picking out the corn, oats, and pellet and left the powder. Now they are on wheat and not eating any grain. They are herefords. I think the problem might be that we only have two. We have a steer that we could throw in with them, would that make them eat better.

I guess you weaned them pretty hard off the feed in the last couple of weeks.
Like I said I got a kitten trying to BS an old tomcat.

 

[KMacGinley]

NO, these bulls received right at an average of 13lbs of grain daily, and then received prairie hay. The feed we feed in bulk costs $3.5 per 50lbs. Our weaning weights averaged 600lbs including the heifers and steers. I think that is a good weight for just pasture. Our high end was 720lbs and the low end was 500lbs. Where did you get that I stated anything about not cross breeding, of course you should cross breed in a commercial operation. And of course I have to sell mine for more then the commercial man to make a profit, that is all common sense. How about you stick with what you like, and I won't say what you should do for your operation and country. We do things completely different, and that is fine. I agree with very little you say regarding feeding, and the same most likely applies for you about me. Lets just leave it at that

By the way our heifers averaged 883.3 yearling on hay and 4lbs of grain, pretty good growth I would say.

I think that Hill moved to Kansas.

 

[Brandonm2]

I think yall are being too rough on Oak. First of all he is up in the Sandhills of Nebraska NOT sunning himself in Alabama or Southeast Texas. You probably are going to have to develop bulls on grain up there because of the shorter growing season. Ryegrass would be green up there (I am guessing) from only ~March 20 to Thanksgiving and rainfall is a factor too limiting the amount of forage you can stockpile. There has been a big spread for sale advertised recently on the web from up there 15,000 acres and can carry only 1000 cows. ~15 acres to the cow. 500 acres up there will only carry 32 cows at that rate. The easiest way to increase carrying capacity is to feed grain. I think Caustic and everybody else here knows that MOST bulls are grown out on pasture AND GRAIN and many are drylotted and fed mixed ration from the day they are weaned to the day you load them on your truck. I am old school and would prefer a 24 month old bull grown out primarily on a forage program; BUT the important thing is that the bull is grown out. I don't see anything at all wrong with 2.5 lbs a day. Bull weans at 600 lbs. Six months later at 2.5 lbs per day would put him at 1050. By 18 months he should be 1425 (if I did the math right). For commercial bulls, I can't see any need to push one harder than that.

 

[MikeC]

I agree with you Brandon. A bull/heifer must be given enough nutrients while growing for him to express his genetic merit, WHEREVER it comes from. Just because a bull was developed on some grain does not mean he can't do well in the pasture when turned out.

They don't forget how to graze.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I think yall are being too rough on Oak. First of all he is up in the Sandhills of Nebraska NOT sunning himself in Alabama or Southeast Texas. You probably are going to have to develop bulls on grain up there because of the shorter growing season. Ryegrass would be green up there (I am guessing) from only ~March 20 to Thanksgiving and rainfall is a factor too limiting the amount of forage you can stockpile. There has been a big spread for sale advertised recently on the web from up there 15,000 acres and can carry only 1000 cows. ~15 acres to the cow. 500 acres up there will only carry 32 cows at that rate. The easiest way to increase carrying capacity is to feed grain. I think Caustic and everybody else here knows that MOST bulls are grown out on pasture AND GRAIN and many are drylotted and fed mixed ration from the day they are weaned to the day you load them on your truck. I am old school and would prefer a 24 month old bull grown out primarily on a forage program; BUT the important thing is that the bull is grown out. I don't see anything at all wrong with 2.5 lbs a day. Bull weans at 600 lbs. Six months later at 2.5 lbs per day would put him at 1050. By 18 months he should be 1425 (if I did the math right). For commercial bulls, I can't see any need to push one harder than that.

Nothing wrong with grain but those are inflated numbers he has been caught lieing about his feeding program. That sure would put me looking at his stocks performance with a jaundice eye.
If your selling seedstock you need to be honest to it was forage or grain raised. Makes a He11 of a difference in the bull I buy. There is a heck of a difference in a bull calf gaining 2.5 pounds a day on a grain program versus on a forage program.
If you have to pour feed into an animal to get that poor of potential is this the kind of Terminal sire you would want on your cows? Not me.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Not lieing, the first time I was guessing (and was off a little). Since then we have went back and measured every pound fed to the bulls. The average since weaning has been around 12 or 13lbs. That takes into consideration the 5lbs a day they received at the start, and the 20lbs received at the end. No question my feeding program needs work, that was why I asked the question. I would guess that they gained a lot better in the end then at the start of our feeding. We kind of got into a better pattern. I would say they gained fairly well. They rounded off at gaining 2.87lbs a day, needs to be a little higher but not bad. For the last 2 months the bulls have been out on grass getting 5lbs 20% cubes and 5lbs of the performance bull once a day. Don't say I lie, you pick apart everything just trying to find something to argue, I think you have been way off on creep feeding if I recall previous posts, but I would never say you lied. Get over it, I am happy with the results that we have had this year and hope for more next year. We are going to creep feed half of the calves this year, and hopefully feed them out a little different after weaning. I wouldn't call the average of 13lbs "pouring grain" to an animal.

And I resent the fact that I was referred to as hill.

 

[Brandonm2]

Most of them I talk to who have a "forage program" are feeding 2-7 lbs of grain a day of supplement to those bulls while they are on the ryegrass. Around here we wean commercial calves off the cow at 6-8 months and never see them again and have no earthly idea how they performed after they got off the trailer. The only thing we grow out at all are heifers. Most cow-calf guys are unlikely to ever grain finish or grass fatten a whole calf crop so the actual postweaning numbers are kind of pointless for most of us. We want a low birth weight calf that causes us no problems at birth and a big growthy calf that brings top dollars in the sale ring. I want a bull that is grown out enough that he can go out there and settle the cows in 60-80 days and does it with the least amount of effort on my part. That generally means 1400-1800 lbs. Somebody is going to have to take him to that point and I generally prefer it if somebody else did it for me. It is up to the seedstock producer to get the bull ready to work for his customers. MOST bulls will work sooner on a grain based diet. Some people may have good ground and can run a forage program that will get bulls heavy enough fast enough without supplement. NOT everybody has that right combination of climate (including rainfall), soil fertility, available acreage, and management that they can run an all forage bull development program. IF they don't have all of those elements they HAVE to add supplement in whatever quantity is necessary to get those bulls ready to sell. Oak knows more about what resources he has available to him than either of us do and he has elected to feed 13 lbs of ration a day. I may or may not have made the same decisions as Oak has; but I can't really know unless I have at least seen his layout.