Replacement females???

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I'm curious about holding one or more of this year's heifers for replacements. I kept five from last year's crop but they were from a different bull. I've heard some say inbreeding with the first generation is probably pretty safe but beyond that, you stand more of a chance of having undesirable traits showing up. Thoughts? Input appreciated.

Why take chances? Most of the cattle business is about minimizing unknowns and avoiding risks. It's considered good management. The biggest reason calving ease, low birth weight has become so focused on is because we worry about heifers and cows having normal sized calves. If you worry about the size of your calves enough to look for low birth weight bull... then why would you consider inbreeding?
 
This is just my opinion, ok? At today's prices, I would sell the hell out of any and all calves...bull or heifers. When you retain one...6 mos old at weaning, it will be 2 and 1/2 year before you wean the 1st calf off of her to sell. I watched 300 weight heifers bring plus or minus $3.35 a pound yesterday in several places across the country. 400 weights bring $2.80 - $3, and 500 weights bring over $2.50/lb. When good cows can be bought for $1k or loess, and calves are down at $1.50 a pound, it might be worth raising one ( not to me).

Most genetic defects in mammals are carried on recessive genes. Takes 2 copies of the gene to manifest. Think about it...if they were dominant instead of recessive, then most of a species would be affected. When inbreeding works out, it is the exception more so than the rule. You can have a cow with traits you like, but you don't have to breed her to her son to get other good calves. You can find a bull that is unrelated that also has the traits you desire. Same with a bull that throws calves you like. Don't have to breed him to his dam or daughters, to get other claves with the traits you like. There is a reason other than religious reasons, that incest was always taboo in most all human societies. Even in primitive societies, long before any science, much less genetics were present, that man had an instinctive aversion to it.

That being said, if one wants to retain heifers, there are several ways to avoid in-breeding. Two neighboring dairies back when I was growing up, would swap bulls to breed to their cows sired by their own bull. I knew several small beef cow-calf operators, that would go buy a 900 lb or so Angus bull at the sale barn....keep it a few months to breed their cows, then carry it to the sale. It had gained some weight, and would sell for what they paid for it....maybe a little more.. maybe a little less, and just buy another one the next year. They thought it ridiculous and a waste of money to fool with and feed a bull year round. Retaining heifers might be easier than trying to buy replacements for their cows. and selling a bull and finding another one, is easier than having to find multiple cows or heifers to buy. Many commercial operators with moderate to smaller sized cows, are going to sell the bull once he approaches a ton in weight anyhow. Or once he is 5 years old or so.

If you sold those 3 heifers at weaning, and took the money to buy a good cow or two, you'd be money ahead 30 months later, before you got the first calves out of those heifers. Those cows would have already given you 2 calf crops. If you are thinking of retaining those 3 because their mommas are about to age out, take them to the sale too, and you will make enough money to buy three absolutely bodacious, mac-daddy registered cows, and have some cash left over.


Another factor to consider is the quantity and quality of the cattle available to you in your area. And the distance to them. There is now less than 50% of the sale barns around here now than there were 20-25 years ago. And way less cattle operations here in north Ga, than there were at the turn of the century, But there is still a weekly sale barn 20 minutes from me, and several more within an hour or so. This may not be true for our Wyoming, Montana, Canadian etc, members. How about you?

Hope this helps. Ever how many CT forums members there are, is about how many different opinions and ideas about this subject you can get. Like many have said on various threads here on CT, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
"If you sold those 3 heifers at weaning, and took the money to buy a good cow or two, you'd be money ahead 30 months later, before you got the first calves out of those heifers." - that is a very good point…I have a few places nearby with good reputations when it comes to selling cattle. Thanks
 
Breeding the heifers to their sire will only effect your herd if you keep their offspring. Make all their calves terminal until you get a new bull and it should not be an issue.
That's what I've read in other places. Probably how we wound up with an oddball looking cow or two at this point. Thanks
 
I think I like the idea of selling the heifers and buying a replacement or two. This isn't something I would need to do frequently but I do have one or two that are still producing good calves but getting a little long in the tooth as they say. Sold one last year that had a good calf but only had one tooth left - she was noticeably going down hill so I let her go. I'd kind of like to get a couple of charolais just because I like the calves these current ones produce - and they fetch a fair price at the sale barn. Will probably maintain a dominantly brangus group as they have proven to be a good fit. I just like to see a little color in the pasture. Both the brangus & the charolais here have been consistent performers. We'll just have to see how the oddball gray cow's calf does. This is the first one I've seen from her. The rest are pretty solid producers. Appreciate the input - all valid points and easy enough for my little peanut brain to understand. And the five I kept from last year are still too young to make the call on - they look good…I suppose time will tell.
 
Why take chances? Most of the cattle business is about minimizing unknowns and avoiding risks. It's considered good management. The biggest reason calving ease, low birth weight has become so focused on is because we worry about heifers and cows having normal sized calves. If you worry about the size of your calves enough to look for low birth weight bull... then why would you consider inbreeding?
Never really thought about calving ease and such. I just watch and see where the best performers are and cull out psycho cows. Working solo I don't need crazy ones but I do need good performers.
 
Whether the calf is terminal or retained , has nothing to do with whether the resulting son ( who is also a grandson) or the resulting daughter ( who is also a granddaughter) gets the genetic defect. The bull is heterozygous for the defect. Bred to a cow that has no copy of the gene, the resulting calf has a 50% of carrying that gene, and a 50% chance of being a non-carrier. Bred back to its sire, the calf with one copy of the defective gene has a 25% chance of having that defect...homozygous for the defective gene., 50% chance of being a carrier, and a 25% of being a non-carrier You are right, though, about the herd health thing. If you then bred that daughter- granddaughters back to that bull again, of the 75% that survive.... that don't have the defect... 2 out of 3 of them will be carriers.
You are telling me not do to some thing we and the rest of the world has been doing for... forever.

I'm as worried about genetic defects as I am the eclipse. 🤣
 
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I think I like the idea of selling the heifers and buying a replacement or two. This isn't something I would need to do frequently but I do have one or two that are still producing good calves but getting a little long in the tooth as they say. Sold one last year that had a good calf but only had one tooth left - she was noticeably going down hill so I let her go. I'd kind of like to get a couple of charolais just because I like the calves these current ones produce - and they fetch a fair price at the sale barn. Will probably maintain a dominantly brangus group as they have proven to be a good fit. I just like to see a little color in the pasture. Both the brangus & the charolais here have been consistent performers. We'll just have to see how the oddball gray cow's calf does. This is the first one I've seen from her. The rest are pretty solid producers. Appreciate the input - all valid points and easy enough for my little peanut brain to understand. And the five I kept from last year are still too young to make the call on - they look good…I suppose time will tell.
Charolais can add growth to crosses on British and British x Brahma composites, sure enough. You may consider using red Charolais, though. Homo for non-dilute ones, and homo for polled. That is the only difference between them and white Charolais.. no dilute gene. Bred to your Brangus bull ( provided he is pure Brangus, homo for black and polled) all the calves will be black and polled. With white Charolais, you get the "smoky" calves. No chance of them ever bringing the CAB premium when you sell them. The red Chars will be higher than a white one of similar quality most of the time. I have an order for 5 RC cows right now, and they are harder to find than the whites are right now. There are a lot of breeders of RCs in Texas, though. When you get ready, I can send you some of the Texas contacts. Dunno exactly where in Texas you are, or they are, so I will just send you all the Tx ones I have.
 
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You are telling me not do to some thing we and the rest of the world has been doing for... forever.

I'm as worried about genetic defects as I am the ellipse. 🤣
Does not matter how long you or others have been doing it, it does not change the science or mathematics behind it. You might play Russian roulette 100 times before you land on the loaded chamber and blow your head off. Or might just do it twice before you do. Or you might land on the loaded chamber the first time you spin the cylinder, and blow your head off. But if you never play Russian roulette, then there is ZERO chances you will blow your head off. The chances of an offspring receiving 2 copies of a recessive mutant...or defective ...gene, are greater when you in-breed. That is the downside to it.
 
Does not matter how long you or others have been doing it, it does not change the science or mathematics behind it. You might play Russian roulette 100 times before you land on the loaded chamber and blow your head off. Or might just do it twice before you do. Or you might land on the loaded chamber the first time you spin the cylinder, and blow your head off. But if you never play Russian roulette, then there is ZERO chances you will blow your head off. The chances of an offspring receiving 2 copies of a recessive mutant...or defective ...gene, are greater when you in-breed. That is the downside to it.
You can keyboard this to death trying to impress the ignorant but it isn't going to fly here. The facts are the facts. The rest of the world doesn't care about your made up rules. You are all theory and no application.
 
I'm keeping a half dozen of my own heifers myself. Though I also agree with the principle that at today's prices that makes it near madness. I should sell everything I can. It's a financial hit I'm willing to take to retain specific genetics without having to go shopping and incorporate new cattle into my closed herd. The cost of doing the latter (for me) has outweighed the costs of retaining heifers. though..... those same cattle I have will produce some more heifers this fall so .... who knows.....

I would not freaked out about breeding sire to daughter and making those calves terminal - though that is not my case. 99 times out of a 100 it will be totally fine.
 
I let a young bull breed his momma, 2 aunts, and 3 half sister this go round. One was his sister/cousin/and aunt I think. Lol. We shall see.

I let a bull breed his daughters a few times the last few years, I didn't much like the outcome. Had a few dinks from that. I think the brother deal is going to work better. But it is a bigger gamble i assume when doing it with commercial cattle. No more daddy/daughter here.

@angus9259 - I've got some of the prettiest heifers right now that I've had yet, out of my best cows, so I'm going to give them a chance to breed too. I think prices will hang around for a little bit. The few heifers I've bought in haven't worked nearly as well as what I've raised. Worth the cost to me.
 
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You can keyboard this to death trying to impress the ignorant but it isn't going to fly here. The facts are the facts. The rest of the world doesn't care about your made up rules. You are all theory and no application.
Brute... The facts are the facts. And absolutely application. There are more defects today than there were 50 years ago due to people being ignorant about inbreeding. That's a fact. And you know how much I distrust anything Warren says... but he explained it very well and simply enough that anyone with any knowledge of genetics would understand it. Wishful thinking that a pairing of closely related animals can't result in a defect is where the "made up" rules are.
 
Yall do what yall want. I'll keeping rolling dice then for the next 100 years just like the past 100. 😄

Like I said, I have zero issue breeding a sire to his daughter, especially in that aplication. I am doing it and will continue to do it.

In fact, if more people would do it maybe we would snuff out these genetic defects yall speak of rather than dancing around them in fear.

Notice how people who don't do it are scared of it, and people who do, aren't.🤔 Maybe there is a link to one groups culling practices vs the other that is causing the fear vs confidence.
 
Well --- depends on the BREED of cattle. There are some breeds that really don't have any "known" defects and others that have LOTS of defects. Some breeds have AI bulls in stud with acknowledged known defects. People still use them on "clean" females. I wouldn't knowingly use a bull with a known defect - period.
 
In fact, if more people would do it maybe we would snuff out these genetic defects yall speak of rather than dancing around them in fear.

That's not the way it works. Every critter on the planet with DNA has spontaneous mutations. It's a given. Breeding two animals with the same mutations produces chances of either a beneficial mutation or a detrimental one, and detrimental are far more common. This is why I use that example of the Gar Precision bull (https://utia.tennessee.edu/ansc/wp-...7/2020/04/CurleyCalfSyndromeForBullBuyers.pdf) This bull still has offspring out in the general population and we'll probably never see the harmful mutation ever be completely eliminated.

Notice how people who don't do it are scared of it, and people who do, aren't.🤔 Maybe there is a link to one groups culling practices vs the other that is causing the fear vs confidence.

Maybe there are people that know what they are talking about and others that don't realize what kind of consequences there can be... but like to act tough instead of smart.
 
That's not the way it works. Every critter on the planet with DNA has spontaneous mutations. It's a given. Breeding two animals with the same mutations produces chances of either a beneficial mutation or a detrimental one, and detrimental are far more common. This is why I use that example of the Gar Precision bull (https://utia.tennessee.edu/ansc/wp-...7/2020/04/CurleyCalfSyndromeForBullBuyers.pdf) This bull still has offspring out in the general population and we'll probably never see the harmful mutation ever be completely eliminated.



Maybe there are people that know what they are talking about and others that don't realize what kind of consequences there can be... but like to act tough instead of smart.
I shared my real life experiences. Yall are welcome to do the same.
 
Yall do what yall want. I'll keeping rolling dice then for the next 100 years just like the past 100. 😄

Like I said, I have zero issue breeding a sire to his daughter, especially in that aplication. I am doing it and will continue to do it.

In fact, if more people would do it maybe we would snuff out these genetic defects yall speak of rather than dancing around them in fear.

Notice how people who don't do it are scared of it, and people who do, aren't.🤔 Maybe there is a link to one groups culling practices vs the other that is causing the fear vs confidence.
We've held over heifers in the past that were undoubtedly bred back to their sire. I don't recall any major problems - just interested in what other folks might have to say on the matter. I think the timing of seeing a return in this case might be better if I sell these three this fall and get a couple of replacements in the spring for the ones I have now that are showing signs of aging out.
 
Brute... The facts are the facts. And absolutely application. There are more defects today than there were 50 years ago due to people being ignorant about inbreeding. That's a fact. And you know how much I distrust anything Warren says... but he explained it very well and simply enough that anyone with any knowledge of genetics would understand it. Wishful thinking that a pairing of closely related animals can't result in a defect is where the "made up" rules are.
Travlr, what makes you think that there are more genetic defects around today than there were 50 years ago? The difference now is that they can be identified and something can be done about them. I have pathology text books from 50 years ago that are full of defects that we now recognize as genetic defects but back then they were considered freaks of nature and just buried.

Ken
 

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