Replacement females???
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salebarn junkie
Well-known member
81% is a great number I might use heifers if I could do that.iam at 55% so can't make the dollars work. just curious do you let them fall back a season if open? what age do you breed at.
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
Don't let them fall back, if open they leave (if you let them skip a year your rewarding poor fertility). Bred to calve at 2. Took years of culling the late calvers, but now it is paying off having a herd that typically calves out in 2 cycles.
Silver
Well-known member
One can moan about how long it takes to get a replacement into the herd but if are raising them every year the time means nothing, the cost vs. return is the only factor to consider, financially speaking.
There are those on here that think eliminating inputs are the only way to profitability but the obviously haven't looked at a ledger sheet.
There are those on here that think eliminating inputs are the only way to profitability but the obviously haven't looked at a ledger sheet.
crossbreed
Well-known member
Never thought about the dam that way. I've got to chew on that a little bit.
That's not really a true statement. The dam made you an asset that has a value and is potentially appreciating tax free.
There is nothing wrong with swapping the calf for a producing cow but to say the cow did not produce any thing is not true. Your balance sheet will show the value of those retained heifers.
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Travlr
Well-known member
Yeah, I don't see the retained heifer as having no value so the dam produced value whether the heifer is sold or retained.
Something else to ponder if you're buying replacement heifers; you don't know the lineage or anything about her unless you purchase private treaty - and the seller has diligent records. And here's why that's important:
I had to pull a calf from a heifer last year for the first time in, well, I can't remember it's been that long. She pelvic measured 168, her sire has a CEM +12 and she was bred by a CED +9 bull. She should have easily had an 85 lb. calf unassisted and was a BCS 6, so not overweight at all. But she gave everything to her calf and it was a 105 lb. heifer.
Wouldn't you know, her sister was one of the heifers I retained last year. She pelvic measured 156.25, her sire has a CEM +9 and she was bred by the same CED +9 bull. And yup, you guessed it, I had to pull her calf yesterday. This one was a 90 lb. bull calf.
It's the dams lineage. They have all been spectacular producers, going back to the great grandma, but one cow in particular has consistently had 85-100 lb. calves and the aforementioned were the first heifers I ever kept as replacements. And now I know - and won't keep any more heifers from her. And in a perfect world, she'd give me nothing but bull calves.
I'm just saying, buyer beware. Especially if you're buying bred heifers.
I had to pull a calf from a heifer last year for the first time in, well, I can't remember it's been that long. She pelvic measured 168, her sire has a CEM +12 and she was bred by a CED +9 bull. She should have easily had an 85 lb. calf unassisted and was a BCS 6, so not overweight at all. But she gave everything to her calf and it was a 105 lb. heifer.
Wouldn't you know, her sister was one of the heifers I retained last year. She pelvic measured 156.25, her sire has a CEM +9 and she was bred by the same CED +9 bull. And yup, you guessed it, I had to pull her calf yesterday. This one was a 90 lb. bull calf.
It's the dams lineage. They have all been spectacular producers, going back to the great grandma, but one cow in particular has consistently had 85-100 lb. calves and the aforementioned were the first heifers I ever kept as replacements. And now I know - and won't keep any more heifers from her. And in a perfect world, she'd give me nothing but bull calves.
I'm just saying, buyer beware. Especially if you're buying bred heifers.
Travlr
Well-known member
One of the things that seems to not get a lot of discussion is that some of these small pelvises expand better than some of the larger ones. And that runs in maternal lines too... and probably is a trait that the sire has something to do with. But we tend to go for the easy answer and make decisions on pelvic measurements instead of watching our cattle and making choices on past success.
If our @lithuanian farmer is having success with 100+ pound double muscled calves... I think something is wrong when we are breeding females incapable of having 70 pounders.
smokey road cattle
Member
now is not the time to buy or keep replacement cows or heifers you should have done it in 2021 and 2022 when they were cheap , then you could cull hard now on high butcher cow prices and have more yearlings to sell at record prices, I kept double replacements both years, happy all the way to the bank
A correlation between the age and (if I recall correctly) breed of heifer. Heifers bred so they'll calve at appx. 36 months vs. 24 months have less "wiggle room" in their pelvis. Which is why mine are measured at 11 months, turned out at 15 months to calve at 24.
I only retain heifers based on the success of their lineage & dam (and docility). But it's not an exact science. My heifers should easily be able to have a 70-75 lb. calf unassisted. I don't want my heifers having enormous calves, even though it may work in another operation. The calves I had to pull were 105 and 90 lbs.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
TC - that surprises me. I realize mine are Simmental and yours are Angus, but you have good stout cows. I "expect" my 24 months old heifers to have 80-95# calves unassisted. I have never pelvic measured any of my females.
On "age". 24 month old heifers will "expand" much better than 30-36 month old heifers. By that age their pelvics have "calcified" and do not expand nearly as well - according to Cornell Univ. I'll have to see if I can find some research.
On "age". 24 month old heifers will "expand" much better than 30-36 month old heifers. By that age their pelvics have "calcified" and do not expand nearly as well - according to Cornell Univ. I'll have to see if I can find some research.
You and me both! And just to make it more fun, I pulled another big bull calf from a heifer 2 days later. WTH? She probably could have had it on her own, but I didn't know exactly when she went into labor and the tongue was hanging out. Both calves and mamas are doing fine but seriously???? One likely cause that was brought to my attention is the epic cold in their 3rd trimester. Colder weather generally produces larger calves. Survival of the fittest? Dunno.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
TC - I was just going to ask you if you had colder weather than normal for you. My calves are always heavier than other farms using same genetics. My cattle don't have any weather protection (like a nice bedded barn!!!) and I have large calves. I "expect" my heifers to have a 75-95# calf easily. We rarely assist any heifers, let alone any cows. I don't like using a real high CE bull, other than if I have a heifer with absolutely horrrible CE & BW numbers, then I will use a CE bull. But, most CE bulls I pick are spread bulls and have great growth.
gman4691
Well-known member
I'm curious about holding one or more of this year's heifers for replacements. I kept five from last year's crop but they were from a different bull. I've heard some say inbreeding with the first generation is probably pretty safe but beyond that, you stand more of a chance of having undesirable traits showing up. I would rather replace from my own herd as I have some excellent mama cows with good traits and a proven track record. I have three little heifers right now. What are the pros and cons of keeping some (or all 3)? I will still have their sire when they reach breeding age so inbreeding will be unavoidable. I don't mind taking care of them until they reach calving age. Or would I be better off treating them like the steers and taking to sell? I do have some cows (at least one - but she had a nice calf this year) that are getting a little old. The ones I kept from last year were kept as replacements for an old cow, a barren cow, and some psychopaths that I've sold over the last couple of years. If I decide to sell the heifers, I will give them the same Ralgro treatment as the steers. Don't want to give them Ralgro if I decide to keep one or more for breeding. More concerned with what inbreeding will do to the overall genetic quality of the herd. Some of you folks seem to know this genetic stuff pretty good. Please bear in mind, trying to learn about genetics gives me a headache and I haven't made much headway, so respond as if you are responding to a 6th grader. lol We don't do AI or pure breeds - just a herd of mixed breed (mostly brangus with some charolais) cow/calf operation with a full time registered brangus bull. Thoughts? Input appreciated.
This is just my opinion, ok? At today's prices, I would sell the hell out of any and all calves...bull or heifers. When you retain one...6 mos old at weaning, it will be 2 and 1/2 year before you wean the 1st calf off of her to sell. I watched 300 weight heifers bring plus or minus $3.35 a pound yesterday in several places across the country. 400 weights bring $2.80 - $3, and 500 weights bring over $2.50/lb. When good cows can be bought for $1k or loess, and calves are down at $1.50 a pound, it might be worth raising one ( not to me).
Most genetic defects in mammals are carried on recessive genes. Takes 2 copies of the gene to manifest. Think about it...if they were dominant instead of recessive, then most of a species would be affected. When inbreeding works out, it is the exception more so than the rule. You can have a cow with traits you like, but you don't have to breed her to her son to get other good calves. You can find a bull that is unrelated that also has the traits you desire. Same with a bull that throws calves you like. Don't have to breed him to his dam or daughters, to get other claves with the traits you like. There is a reason other than religious reasons, that incest was always taboo in most all human societies. Even in primitive societies, long before any science, much less genetics were present, that man had an instinctive aversion to it.
That being said, if one wants to retain heifers, there are several ways to avoid in-breeding. Two neighboring dairies back when I was growing up, would swap bulls to breed to their cows sired by their own bull. I knew several small beef cow-calf operators, that would go buy a 900 lb or so Angus bull at the sale barn....keep it a few months to breed their cows, then carry it to the sale. It had gained some weight, and would sell for what they paid for it....maybe a little more.. maybe a little less, and just buy another one the next year. They thought it ridiculous and a waste of money to fool with and feed a bull year round. Retaining heifers might be easier than trying to buy replacements for their cows. and selling a bull and finding another one, is easier than having to find multiple cows or heifers to buy. Many commercial operators with moderate to smaller sized cows, are going to sell the bull once he approaches a ton in weight anyhow. Or once he is 5 years old or so.
If you sold those 3 heifers at weaning, and took the money to buy a good cow or two, you'd be money ahead 30 months later, before you got the first calves out of those heifers. Those cows would have already given you 2 calf crops. If you are thinking of retaining those 3 because their mommas are about to age out, take them to the sale too, and you will make enough money to buy three absolutely bodacious, mac-daddy registered cows, and have some cash left over.
Another factor to consider is the quantity and quality of the cattle available to you in your area. And the distance to them. There is now less than 50% of the sale barns around here now than there were 20-25 years ago. And way less cattle operations here in north Ga, than there were at the turn of the century, But there is still a weekly sale barn 20 minutes from me, and several more within an hour or so. This may not be true for our Wyoming, Montana, Canadian etc, members. How about you?
Hope this helps. Ever how many CT forums members there are, is about how many different opinions and ideas about this subject you can get. Like many have said on various threads here on CT, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Breeding the heifers to their sire will only effect your herd if you keep their offspring. Make all their calves terminal until you get a new bull and it should not be an issue.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
It is only called "in-breeding" when it is not successful. It is called "line-breeding" when it works out. Genetic defects are "generally" recessive - this means the sire and the dam have to carry the SAME genetic defect - and - they BOTH have to pass it to the offspring. Odds are in your favor.
Yes, selling them & buying a cow or 2 might be financially beneficial, but, that depends on how much you put emphasis on them "fitting" into your program. Raised cattle "generally" fit in well.
Yes, selling them & buying a cow or 2 might be financially beneficial, but, that depends on how much you put emphasis on them "fitting" into your program. Raised cattle "generally" fit in well.
Whether the calf is terminal or retained , has nothing to do with whether the resulting son ( who is also a grandson) or the resulting daughter ( who is also a granddaughter) gets the genetic defect. The bull is heterozygous for the defect. Bred to a cow that has no copy of the gene, the resulting calf has a 50% of carrying that gene, and a 50% chance of being a non-carrier. Bred back to its sire, the calf with one copy of the defective gene has a 25% chance of having that defect...homozygous for the defective gene., 50% chance of being a carrier, and a 25% of being a non-carrier You are right, though, about the herd health thing. If you then bred that daughter- granddaughters back to that bull again, of the 75% that survive.... that don't have the defect... 2 out of 3 of them will be carriers.
In-breeding is sire x daughter, dam x son, or a cross of full siblings. Line-breeding is grand get to grand get. Three Bars bred to Dandy Doll gave us Doc Bar. Doc Bar bred to Poco Lena gave us Dry Doc... grandson of Three Bars. Three Bars bred to Frontera Sugar gave us Sugar Bars, When Sugar Bars was bred to another mare that had a filly, that filly was a granddaughter of Three Bars. If Dry Doc was bred to that filly, the resulting foal would be called a line-bred Three Bars grandson or granddaughter. It would still be 25% Three Bars like an own grandson or granddaughter would be. Dunno about other dog breeds, but line breeding of champion coonhounds is/was fairly common as well.
