Replacement females???

[TexasRancher]

Yall do what yall want. I'll keeping rolling dice then for the next 100 years just like the past 100.

Like I said, I have zero issue breeding a sire to his daughter, especially in that aplication. I am doing it and will continue to do it.

In fact, if more people would do it maybe we would snuff out these genetic defects yall speak of rather than dancing around them in fear.

Notice how people who don't do it are scared of it, and people who do, aren't. Maybe there is a link to one groups culling practices vs the other that is causing the fear vs confidence.

I have zero issue too Brute. It's always been KNOWN and a FACT you can safely breed father-daughter and mother-son SAFELY in any species, resulting in more than enough genetic diversity for healthy offspring. That said...it's best to remove those calves from the herd and sell them...or do safe line-breeding (which i don't know how to do). For myself, all these father-daughter calves are sold and are perfectly fine for the dinner plate or for breeding in other herds.

 

[gman4691]

Thanks for the input all the way around. Didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. All are valid points.

 

[Charbrangus]

I'm curious about holding one or more of this year's heifers for replacements. I kept five from last year's crop but they were from a different bull. I've heard some say inbreeding with the first generation is probably pretty safe but beyond that, you stand more of a chance of having undesirable traits showing up. I would rather replace from my own herd as I have some excellent mama cows with good traits and a proven track record. I have three little heifers right now. What are the pros and cons of keeping some (or all 3)? I will still have their sire when they reach breeding age so inbreeding will be unavoidable. I don't mind taking care of them until they reach calving age. Or would I be better off treating them like the steers and taking to sell? I do have some cows (at least one - but she had a nice calf this year) that are getting a little old. The ones I kept from last year were kept as replacements for an old cow, a barren cow, and some psychopaths that I've sold over the last couple of years. If I decide to sell the heifers, I will give them the same Ralgro treatment as the steers. Don't want to give them Ralgro if I decide to keep one or more for breeding. More concerned with what inbreeding will do to the overall genetic quality of the herd. Some of you folks seem to know this genetic stuff pretty good. Please bear in mind, trying to learn about genetics gives me a headache and I haven't made much headway, so respond as if you are responding to a 6th grader. lol We don't do AI or pure breeds - just a herd of mixed breed (mostly brangus with some charolais) cow/calf operation with a full time registered brangus bull. Thoughts? Input appreciated.

Some of the old timers said it was ok the first time because they didn't take much stock in a heifer's calf. They usually kept a bull in the field year round. and let them breed when they bred. Heifers were to young, calf was going to be runty anyway so to them it was just a " get this first calf over with." option.

 

[Warren Allison]

You can keyboard this to death trying to impress the ignorant

ROFLMFAO!! Trust me, you have no idea how little I care about impressing you!

The facts are the facts. The rest of the world doesn't care about your made up rules.

Well I appreciate the compliment, but I cannot take credit for the rules of genetics. That would go to Mendel nearly 200 years ago.

 

[gman4691]

Some of the old timers said it was ok the first time because they didn't take much stock in a heifer's calf. They usually kept a bull in the field year round. and let them breed when they bred. Heifers were to young, calf was going to be runty anyway so to them it was just a " get this first calf over with." option.

My bull is with them year round. Both my grandfather and my father did it this way. From the input here, it looks like selling these three in the fall and getting a couple of replacements would be better for my small operation…genetics notwithstanding…thanks for the response

 

[Warren Allison]

Travlr, what makes you think that there are more genetic defects around today than there were 50 years ago? The difference now is that they can be identified and something can be done about them. I have pathology text books from 50 years ago that are full of defects that we now recognize as genetic defects but back then they were considered freaks of nature and just buried.

Ken

And we learned to day, from that world-renowned geneticist, physician, and veterinarian Brute, that "IF everyone would in breed, we would snuff out genetic defects!" LOL

 

[Brute 23]

My bull is with them year round. Both my grandfather and my father did it this way. From the input here, it looks like selling these three in the fall and getting a couple of replacements would be better for my small operation…genetics notwithstanding…thanks for the response

Nothing wrong with going that route. If you are not set up for replacements it can be a real pia.

 

[gman4691]

Nothing wrong with going that route. If you are not set up for replacements it can be a real pia.

Yeah, it would be a little inconvenient in some ways but not overly burdensome.

 

[Warren Allison]

We've held over heifers in the past that were undoubtedly bred back to their sire. I don't recall any major problems - just interested in what other folks might have to say on the matter. I think the timing of seeing a return in this case might be better if I sell these three this fall and get a couple of replacements in the spring for the ones I have now that are showing signs of aging out.

If the bull is not a carrier of a defective gene ( and if it is, he only has one copy, heterazygous for it. If he were homozygous for it, carried 2 copies of the gene, then he would have the defect) then he of course could not pass it to a daughter. (her mother may be a carrier though, which opens a whole nother can of worms). Bred back to that daughter, then there is no chance the non-existent gene is passed to his daughter-who-is-also-his-granddaughter. It is when the bull is a carrier, that the chances of a defective calf increase when bred to his daughter. Most commercial breeders do not test their animals for defective genes, so it is like I said, Russian Roulette, when they inbreed.

It doesn't matter one way or the other, if the father-daughter calf is intended to be terminal or retained yet again...the gene is passed at conception. I guess the ones saying it doesn't matter as long as it is just a terminal cross, don't care about the next person to own it. Another negative to buying commercial, sale-barn heifers. And if the are bred heifers, they may be father-daughter heifers that was bred back to her sire-grandsire.

I have a contact for Brahma replacement heifers, that does retain some of his heifers for his own use from time to time., He maintains around 150 brood cows, that he uses to custom breed 1/2 Brahma replacements ` for folks. He keeps Brahma semen in his tanks, too. When one of those cows is about to age out, he will AI her to a Brahma sire. But it wont be to one that was her sire, when her momma aged out.

A guy that ropes with us keeps a commercial herd of about 50-60 cows...mostly angus, black baldies, and a few simm angus. He has 2 Angus bulls he that he uses...dividing the cows into two different pastures at breeding time. He does retain heifers sometimes, but he will breed them to the bull that was not her sire.

 

[Brute 23]

Get out your waders... it's getting deep.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

When I was a kid, we had a bull inadvertently breed a bunch of his daughters because the bull that was supposed to breed those females turned out to be a dud. The calves where for the most part ok but there were a few that didn't keep up. Those are the ones that we saw. There is a hidden danger of a lethal defect causing an abortion that will never be seen.
As a purebred breeder, my philosophy is that I don't mind a bit of incidental inbreeding but I don't want to tie too closely to just one animal. So I make it a practice to use several bulls AI and to also use multi-sire breeding groups. For commercial cows, crossbreeding is your friend, there is too much of a benefit to crossbreeding to not do that in a commercial setting.

 

[smokey road cattle]

we retain 10-20 replacement heifers every year , closed herd for 20years , breed first calf heifers to LBW bull ,go into main herd after that and are exposed to their sires next year ,no problems. learned from mistake of letting sires cover them one year and pulled calves on half of them, just my experience.

 

[Travlr]

Travlr, what makes you think that there are more genetic defects around today than there were 50 years ago? The difference now is that they can be identified and something can be done about them. I have pathology text books from 50 years ago that are full of defects that we now recognize as genetic defects but back then they were considered freaks of nature and just buried.

Ken

I posted an example... Because of AI and our fascination for following our own (human) herd we use bulls that are descended from the top AI bulls in the country, which are in turn descended from the the top bulls of the prior generation. It's a pyramid. The top bulls produce the next lower layer, and they produce the entire next layer which are the result of AI, and commercial bulls. And then the few people that raise their own bulls are almost assured to be using genetics directly descended in very few generations from the same genetic source.

If people don't want to understand the ramifications and haven't the open mind necessary to learn, instead defending what they want to believe, it doesn't change the facts. There are all kinds of examples in the world where inbreeding has created problems. Everything from the Florida cougar to domestic dogs to human beings.

Golden retrievers, dalmatians, German shepherds, and all kinds of other breeds are trying to deal with genetic defects due to inbreeding... and some breeds have more than one defect.

There's a lot of changes in how the public perceives science lately, and it's based in basic ignorance and wishful thinking. What was once common sense is now common ignorance... not because the science has changed but because people think results based on extremely limited, anecdotal experience and a desire to appear intelligent by questioning authority. But all opinions are not equal.

 

[Brute 23]

Crossbreeding, inbreeding, linebreeding, etc are all just tools in your chest. They all have their place. Like any other tool, in the right hands they can be good and in the wrong hands they can be bad.

Logic... not opinions.

I would suggest yall use the same Google machine to search how inbreeding has/is used correctly in livestock, plants, fish, etc. If you only search for examples where people abused it or it went wrong, it will make you think, it is only bad. A quick search brought up quite a few very informative articles.

This is one of my favorites, I had to screen shot it for our local, self-proclaimed, expert.

 

[Travlr]

Crossbreeding, inbreeding, linebreeding, etc are all just tools in your chest. They all have their place. Like any other tool, in the right hands they can be good and in the wrong hands they can be bad.

Logic... not opinions.

I would suggest yall use the same Google machine to search how inbreeding has/is used correctly in livestock, plants, fish, etc. If you only search for examples where people abused it or it went wrong, it will make you think, it is only bad. A quick search brought up quite a few very informative articles.

This is one of my favorites, I had to screen shot it for our local, self-proclaimed, expert.

View attachment 43464

So tell me... exactly how many people, as a percentage of the livestock breeding population, are capable of thoroughly reading, thinking about, and understanding what your cut and paste is saying? How many will read it with a conclusion already in mind and completely miss the cautionary warning that is expressed... and only see that the words express that it can be done... without regard to the dangers that are exampled?

Do you also advise people to only play Russian roulette with two chambers full... as long as the shells are made by the same manufacturer?

I doubt anyone advising against inbreeding fails to recognize that done with stringent oversight and strong procedural adherence close familial convergence can't result in benefits... But those same people that study for years to learn how to do it responsibly will also be the ones to tell you that 99+% of people are ill equipped to practice backyard inbreeding.

 

[Brute 23]

So tell me... exactly how many people, as a percentage of the livestock breeding population, are capable of thoroughly reading, thinking about, and understanding what your cut and paste is saying? How many will read it with a conclusion already in mind and completely miss the cautionary warning that is expressed... and only see that the words express that it can be done... without regard to the dangers that are exampled?

Do you also advise people to only play Russian roulette with two chambers full... as long as the shells are made by the same manufacturer?

There is always risk with any breeding but yall are exaggerating this situation. They are asking about breeding a few heifers to their sire, for a couple years, until they get a new bull. You just used Russian roulette and a 33% chance of failure for comparison.

That's a little dramatic, imo.

 

[Travlr]

There is always risk with any breeding but yall are exaggerating this situation. They are asking about breeding a few heifers to their sire, for a couple years, until they get a new bull. You just used Russian roulette and a 33% chance of failure for comparison.

That's a little dramatic, imo.

It IS dramatic... and exaggerated for a reason. Because there are people encouraging their neighbors to take chances instead of employing good management. You accuse me of drama to cover your opposite flawed advice which is just as dramatic in the other direction.

You want to do this on your own cattle? Go right ahead. I don't think it's responsible without the education and the CAUTION it takes to do it deliberately. But don't advise others to do it AND telling them it has no consequences worth considering.

 

[gman4691]

Sounds like it is like most things. It can be beneficial to rebuild a transmission…but you probably wouldn't want me doing it…lol…given time, I could probably do it but not nearly as efficiently and effectively as others. Like most things, it's best done by people who have a thorough understanding of the process…some folks on here have various breeding "programs" which they have honed over the years to yield the best results given their goals. Doesn't mean one method is necessarily "good" or "bad"…just what works best for a given situation.

It has been an interesting read, though.

 

[Brute 23]

But don't advise others to do it AND telling them it has no consequences worth considering.

Where did I say that?

I have been very honest about the risks of breeding your own animals, in general.

You are attempting to put words in my mouth now to help your cause. Yall keep trying to make this personal and attack me rather than just have pro/ con discussion. Pretty sad.

 

[Travlr]

Where did I say that?

"Nothing wrong with going that route. If you are not set up for replacements it can be a real pia."

"I'm as worried about genetic defects as I am the eclipse. "

"You can keyboard this to death trying to impress the ignorant but it isn't going to fly here. The facts are the facts. The rest of the world doesn't care about your made up rules. You are all theory and no application."