Power of Prayer

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My daughters boyfriend was on his way to our place so they could go to church and have dinner with his grandparents. He wrecked his truck and had to crawl out the passenger window. Was this God's will? I took her to his parents house so it all worked out. But he's a young kid trying to do right and this happens. Everybody said God was looking out for him. Faith is a strange thing.
 
When I was younger I use to pray for all kinds of stuff some I got some I didn't. We weren't rich but we weren't dirt poor either my parents were missionaries in Honduras. It is funny when I talk to people they ask me do you remember this toy or that and I am like no so missed out on a lot of cool stuff people my age played with. Missing out on some stuff gave me some of my best childhood memories I remember no electricity and my mom reading to us by oil lamp light. I think God gave me everything I needed for a happy childhood. Now days all I pray for is my families safety and health, rain and help with decisions I make. never really ask for material stuff anymore. My wife had a bad accident a few years ago broke her neck was in the hospital but that didn't matter just thank God she made it and is still alive. I believe prayer works you just don't always get what ya want sometimes God just gives you what you need.
 
I was blessed to have come from a very long family of people who believe in God. my hubby isn't the same . his family never went , I don't know their heart tho. we have 2 children ,when they were growing up I always took them to church and he always gripped about it . so I decided to stay home with him . wasn't long and I was laying in bed when it occurred to me that God blessed me with 2 children and the most important job I had in life was to take them to church and see them saved .they are grown now and they are saved . he's still a work in progress . but he blames God for not protecting me when I had my accident . im glad that God put me on this path and he's been with me all the way .
my point is , it is way better to learn about something that important before you say you don't believe in it . you can't say you don't believe in something that you don't believe exists .
why don't you believe ?
respectfully
 
I always wondered why a non-believer will blame God for allowing something bad to happen when they claim that He doesn't exist.
 
I was invited a couple of weekends ago to speak to some early elementary age children. I brought a couple of 40 pound hand weights, and in a gym bag, I had a couple of 3 pound weights. While I was speaking to them, i told them how I wanted to get stronger, and more physically fit. I started curling the hand weights, and pressing them over my head, as I made my point about how long I would have to work achieve my goal. When I had literally reached my physical limit of curling, and pressing I laid the 40 pound weights down. I reached in my bag, and got out my 3 pound weights. I started working out with the lighter weights while continueing to tell my story. I kept going until someone finally pointed out that the 3 pounds weights would never make me stronger. The point I went on to make was that if God only sends us easy challenges, there is a limit to how strong our faith will be. When we are faced with big challenges, our faith just gets stronger.
 
I've pondered how anyone can claim to have basic human rights but reject the basis of those rights being God. Sincerely- what are they based on? If rights are determined by a government, then if the government changes, so do the rights- and justly so. Only when there is an eternal foundation for those rights are they inalienable. If we are just animals, and life originated from nothing, then human rights do not exist. Totalitarianism is just. Bondage is just, it is the law of the jungle. Might will always make right... Only by acknowledging a transcending order above our own, does justice exist. If it is based on humans, humans can take it away.

I wrote the following a while back in a response elsewhere that may provide some fodder for thought in this thread.

If the Bible is the Word of the Holy(perfect) God, then it is perfect. To disprove it would only take a discrepancy in any realm of knowledge, not just "science". There are those believers that would argue that it is not a book of science. I have a hard time understanding how an omniscience God that is capable of not only creating the universe but also predicting the end of it, cannot accurately lay out and stay consistent with natural laws He Himself created. I find the Bible very consistent with the proven wisdom of our world.

Financial doctrine. Show me a civilization that has advanced in knowledge, offered prosperity, or been more just than the civilization based on Biblical principles. Without a creator, no American or human on Earth can claim inalienable rights. In those, is a right to personal property and ability to protect that property. Freedom from incarceration due to debt- What judicial system in history other than Jerusalem that had the year of Jubilee where all debt was forgiven, are you given a chance at self produced success, and yet failure (debt) has not meant enslavement or imprisonment- for life or until the debt has been fully settled. When allowed to function, it is as close to a utopia on earth as you will find. There is almost no upside restriction, and yet a bottom safety net has been placed. When you fail or hit zero, you can start again. Socialism doesn't come close to the Utopia of our financial system when allowed to function as intended. Socialism supposedly places a safety net under the masses, but in reality, it places the net over them. Totalitarianism is almost a direct polar concept except for a select few. There is no other system where all are given a chance and even multiple chances.

The judicial doctrine. "An eye for an eye" was written to quell the violence of the times. From my understanding, it was more like 10 eyes for an eye at that point in history and violence was very cyclical. The Mosaic law was/is very just. The extended law of Christ- personal forgiveness is divine and life changing, actually world changing. The only way to truly interrupt cyclical violence is forgiveness. Without it, wounds don't heal and the violence of ages old continues.


Time. There is a lot of emphasis placed on time when trying to dispute the Bible. Time is a funny thing. Our time is an Earthly measurement only. It is Earth's rotation around the sun. No earth, no sun, no time... Einstein said it was relative and everyone thought he was genius. The Bible said it in terms to be understood by early civilization long before Einstein.

I don't wish to take anything out of context, as I don't wish to add or remove anything of importance to the underlying message of a passage.

2 Peter 3:8. "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

I would take this and passages like it, to support that God is not bound by our time. In other words, time is relative to space.


Microbiology is woven throughout the old testament customs. They were to be taken literally. Just like other laws to protect health, finance, family structure, national security.....

The use of parables does not negate the facts and statements of the bible. If that was applied to current course books, would there be any without illustrations? No, it is a tool used for teaching.

My ultimate measuring stick is this.... Jesus spoke of many old testament incidences, creation and miracles. If they did not exist, then He was a liar and imperfect. If He is imperfect, then He is not a savior and the entirety of Him is false. If you believe in Him, you have to believe that everything He said is true. There can be no middle ground.

Some aspects we may not be able to fully appreciate. Like trying to explain bacteria to a first century individual. They weren't ready for microbiology, but the law was sufficient for protection.

If nothing else, there is order in our universe. It has been there all along. As we uncover more and more, we believe ourselves to be intelligent. Through the generations it is amazing to me and only further proof, that the Bible has not been refuted by discovery. Intelligence is not discovery of the laws of nature, but writing them so perfectly in the first place. If people devoted less time to try to refute it, and more time to trying to unlock the information provided, our world would be a better place. A much nearer to utopia place than any other system prescribed by man.
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Ron, I heard a wise man say this past Sunday that God's ways do not change because our understanding, thoughts or feelings do. They have been the same since creation and will remain the same. It is up to us to accept what he offers and has been paid for already. That is worth a lot more than a glass of chocolate milk, the cost was an amount that none of us can pay. I added the part about the chocolate milk.
 
All too often we pray to change God's mind when the mind that needs changing is ours. So much of what is wrong in this world is caused by people that are their own God. Pick up a newspaper, look at all the terrible things people do to each other, God doesn't cause all that. So why doesn't God stop it? Well, some day he will. I do not know of one example in scripture where God interferes with the free will of anybody.

Larry
 
if this thread is overwhelming to you or you feel like your being attacked , it's just Godly people who care about you . it is the ct family some believe some don't . but we do care and pray for all .
you gotta admire what has been posted is undeniably profound .
 
Bigfoot":zvn14b6m said:
I was invited a couple of weekends ago to speak to some early elementary age children. I brought a couple of 40 pound hand weights, and in a gym bag, I had a couple of 3 pound weights. While I was speaking to them, i told them how I wanted to get stronger, and more physically fit. I started curling the hand weights, and pressing them over my head, as I made my point about how long I would have to work achieve my goal. When I had literally reached my physical limit of curling, and pressing I laid the 40 pound weights down. I reached in my bag, and got out my 3 pound weights. I started working out with the lighter weights while continueing to tell my story. I kept going until someone finally pointed out that the 3 pounds weights would never make me stronger. The point I went on to make was that if God only sends us easy challenges, there is a limit to how strong our faith will be. When we are faced with big challenges, our faith just gets stronger.
Click to expand...
What a great way to witness and teach Gods word and works!!
 
I don't mean this to be disrespectful. Only conversational. Wisdom would suggest that issues that do not lend themselves to resolution be avoided. But it is not fun to always be guided by wisdom.

CF, you stated above:
If the Bible is the Word of the Holy (perfect) God, then it is perfect.

The pivotal word is "If". You were gracious to include that conjunction. Thus, you have opened the door for an opposing concept other than the book is "the Word of Holy (perfect) God". The opposing concept is that the book is an ancient compilation of stories told by ancient men to explain the unknown and guide man in his daily life (and woman).

Tangible non-faith-based evidence does not exist to objectively conclude the book is "the Word of the Holy." It has caused theologians many thoughtful hours. Regardless of how inspiring those authors were, in the absence God to sit before us and demonstrate his perfection and divine power, it is a book, albeit a great one. Therefore, man, in the form of tribes, villages, nations, and governments have set rules and established justice. The Greeks get the most credit for our foundations of laws and justice which pre-dates Christ.

That brings this discussion to this: Two predominant possibilities exist.

1. The Universe is the result of a natural process.
2. The Universe is the result of divine creation.

Currently, Homo sapiens are not in possession of data, evidence, or any other means to explain which possibility is fact. Homo sapiens are limited to either faith-based support for divine creation or theories that are advanced based on the meager data available that the Universe is the result of Natural processes and the Laws of Physics.

Now personal (forgive me, this is my conviction): The divine explanation never struck me as logical. Why a being powerful enough to create a Universe would mastermind a ritual for achieving spiritual existence in a good place or burn for eternity in a bad place, does not work in my head. I welcome your prayers and am not offended by sermons. I am thankful I exist and in some form at the atomic level, I will be here forever if matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

Just a tidbit: If I watch TV, my favorite entertainment is the TV evangelist. I see them as motivational speakers and some are excellent.
 
When I was a kid, chocolate milk would be considered an extreme luxury item not indulged in very often. I would have never considered praying for something like a luxury. The Lord's prayer clearly asks Him for our daily bread. We pray that our needs are fulfilled, not our wants.

When I was a kid, store bought milk was unheard of. And we needed Mom's permission to put chocolate in our own milk. Ovaltine was Mom's preferred chocolate over Quik because it had nutritional value in it, not just empty sugar calories. But it cost money and therefore was a rare indulgence usually reserved for special occassions.

This thread reminds me of comments made by a local minister last week who officiated at his own mother's funeral. He recounted how amazed he was that his parents provided for a family of 7 kids in a small house on a very slim budget.

His mother grew a garden, canned/froze it, butchered a chicken for Sunday dinners, milked cows and sold cream and eggs to buy other basic staples for the family.

Minister said their family of 6 boys and one girl went through a lot of skim milk. Not whole milk because his mother sold the cream to provide for basic family needs. I bet he didn't get chocolate milk very often, if at all.
 
inyati13":1qae1d0j said:
I don't mean this to be disrespectful. Only conversational. Wisdom would suggest that issues that do not lend themselves to resolution be avoided. But it is not fun to always be guided by wisdom.
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Nothing wrong with a good discussion, I enjoy seeing the views of others.

CF, you stated above:
If the Bible is the Word of the Holy (perfect) God, then it is perfect.

The pivotal word is "If". You were gracious to include that conjunction. Thus, you have opened the door for an opposing concept other than the book is "the Word of Holy (perfect) God". The opposing concept is that the book is an ancient compilation of stories told by ancient men to explain the unknown and guide man in his daily life (and woman).

Tangible non-faith-based evidence does not exist to objectively conclude the book is "the Word of the Holy." It has caused theologians many thoughtful hours. Regardless of how inspiring those authors were, in the absence God to sit before us and demonstrate his perfection and divine power, it is a book, albeit a great one. Therefore, man, in the form of tribes, villages, nations, and governments have set rules and established justice. The Greeks get the most credit for our foundations of laws and justice which pre-dates Christ.
Click to expand...

I'm fairly wiped out from a long night at the moment. And secondly, I don't wish to be more than conversational myself. So I'll let what I said previously, be except clarify that Mosaic law was what I was referring to as to the origins of our current legal system; The 10 commandments and ancillary laws that supported these core values, along with creation of judges from among the members of the tribe to judge between members of the tribe, that had a hierarchical presence with Moses being the supreme court. Mosaic law predates the Greek empire. Christ fulfilled this pre-existing law.

That brings this discussion to this: Two predominant possibilities exist.

1. The Universe is the result of a natural process.
2. The Universe is the result of divine creation.

Currently, Homo sapiens are not in possession of data, evidence, or any other means to explain which possibility is fact. Homo sapiens are limited to either faith-based support for divine creation or theories that are advanced based on the meager data available that the Universe is the result of Natural processes and the Laws of Physics.

Now personal (forgive me, this is my conviction): The divine explanation never struck me as logical. Why a being powerful enough to create a Universe would mastermind a ritual for achieving spiritual existence in a good place or burn for eternity in a bad place, does not work in my head. I welcome your prayers and am not offended by sermons. I am thankful I exist and in some form at the atomic level, I will be here forever if matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

Just a tidbit: If I watch TV, my favorite entertainment is the TV evangelist. I see them as motivational speakers and some are excellent.
Click to expand...

Brother Ron, I would pose this for consideration: It is my view that man was created with free will. If man was not created with free will, then we would not know a true loving relationship with God. A slave to the owner of a house and a spouse may sleep under the same roof, but the relationships to the owner are very different. One has no choice. Secondly, but importantly, I believe that God originally created Earth and a paradise here on Earth for man to enjoy. It is only by the free will choice of man (Adam) to reject the command of God, that man was separated from this paradise. Since God cannot associate with sin, sinful man was separated from God and the course of the world was changed. It was then His plan to provide a means to re-establish a relationship with man. Thus He sent his Son. To re-establish this relationship requires that man, born into this sinful world with his free will, choose God and the means that He has provided for man to redeem himself. Man is not born into paradise now because of original sin's effects on the world, but man ultimately has the ability to chose for him/herself. Complete condemnation of early man would have been more than justified. What we have is a second chance. I'll leave it all at that.

By the way, I agree with you in regards to several TV evangelists- some are self motivational speakers at best (those that subscribe to new age thinking, which is contrary) and thieves of God at worst. I would not desire to be either or wish to waste my time on either. If you want a deep philosopher, the following guy would be someone more worth your time- http://www.rzim.org/ You ultimately may not agree, but I bet you would at least appreciate his approach to thought.
 
I spend a lot of time thinking about faith. How much do I have? How much should I have? Do I share my faith with others? Is my faith for use, or just for show and tell? Like many Christians, I often read the book of Job. Job is a lesson in faith, but I often empathize with his wife. Job was tested past the limits of a normal man. He lost his children, he lost his possesions, he lost his wealth, and finally he lost health. When he was about as low as a man go, his wife. The one he loved, and trusted the most suggested that he curse God, and die. We forget that every adversity that Job faced, she also faced. They were her children to. She shared in Job's wealth etc. etc. She was not stricken with an illness, but she was left with the job of caregiver. She will lalways be remembered, as the one who encouraged Job to "curse God, and die". I see her more as an example of someone that had reached the limit of her faith.
For some their faith is great, and for some their faith is small, and for some their faith doesn't exist. At some point we all have to decide How much faith do I have? I personally, don't want to have to find the limit of mine. I did once pray, that my faith would be molded. I suggest that a Christian not pray that prayer unless you are ready for the consequencies.
 
Ron,
You have jumped from not believing in God because he didn't answer your prayer, to not believing in him because he created h€ll. Why would an all loving God create a place of punishment? To begin with he did not create h€ll for mankind.

"Then he will say to those on his left hand, depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41

So why do people end up in h€ll? Commercialfarmer pointed out free will, and explained it very well. The devil and his angels were also created with a free will. They chose to rebel against God, and God created h€ll as a place of punishment for them. When we choose to rebel against God, we choose the same fate as the devil and his angels.
If God is so loving then why doesn't he forgive us? God is holy. That means he is a God of love, but he is also a God of justice. Because he is holy, he must punish sin. However, because he is a God of love, he wants to forgive us. Because sin must be punished, he sent his son to become one of us so he could die in our place as punishment for our sin. He offers us forgiveness through his son, but we still have that free will to choose or reject that forgiveness. He only forgives those who ask for forgiveness. These will not be punished.

"Then the King will say to those on his right hand, come you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matthew 25:34

You see that? The kingdom was prepared for us, but the place of punishment was prepared for Satan and his fallen angels. If anyone goes to h€ll it is not God's will, but their own.
As for the creation being the result of a natural process, or a divine creation, you say that we do not possess any data, evidence or any other means to explain which possibility is fact. Therefore, you conclude that we are "limited to either faith-based support for divine creation, or theories that are advanced based on the meager data available that the universe is the result of natural processes and the laws of physics." Actually, I believe that the natural order, and the laws of physics, support divine creation. That is a discussion for another day. So let's stay with faith based support.
Ron, I am surprised that you concede that the natural process of creation, or evolution, is based on theories and not facts. Most non-believers incorrectly accept these theories as fact. We both agree that the believer, and the non-believer, have different views on how creation took place. However, I disagree that only the believers have faith. I'd even make the argument that the non-believer has more faith than the believer. It takes more faith than I have to believe that this universe, and all that's in it, came from nothing. I can't find any example of anything coming from nothing. That, my friend, takes real faith.
As for faith in God, well, Bigfoot hit on that. His observation on faith is that "for some their faith is great, for some their faith is small". I can agree with that, and the Bible teaches us that faith can grow. Some people's faith grows faster than other's faith grows. I'm glad it only takes faith the size of a mustard seed to get the job done. Bigfoot also said, "for some their faith doesn't exist".
What is faith? Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If faith is substance of things we hope for, well, what do we hope for? As CF pointed out, the earth and a paradise here on earth were created for man to enjoy. Man was also created to live forever. God created man in his own image to give Himself glory and honor. Through sin, we lost the ability to give God glory and honor. We also lost both paradise and eternal life. Our hope is to have all of that restored. A person that says they do not believe in the existence of God, has no hope, so therefore they have no faith. You say that believers have no tangible evidence for the existence of God. Our evidence is not seen, it is in us. When we put our faith in Him, He comes into our hearts. Our faith gives us the evidence of the unseen.
Ron, if you are sincere that you want us to pray for you, and I believe you are, we will. However, you must be open to God's call that will surely come. Remember, though, that God, more often than not, speaks to us through a still small voice rather than host of angels.
BTW, I agree with CF that you would find Ravi Zacharias very interesting to listen to.
 
Thanks for that DeepSouth. You have a great passion.

It is out of order for me to be drawn into interpretations on the content of the Bible when I have not accepted it as "the Word of the Holy (perfect) God". That does not mean I avoid discussions on the content of the Bible. On the contrary, I have read it and discussed it. My cousin on my dad's side is of the Franciscan order in the Catholic faith. He has spent his life in service including formal studies on the content and meaning of the Bible. I am always enlightened by those who approach the Christian faith in a formal manner. They express doubts more freely than the layman. They express the confounding issues associated with the divine. My Grandfather was an evangelist. I have family that are ordained ministers of the faith.

In regard to asking for prayers. I welcome them, not asking for them. My mother has told me hundreds of times that she began praying for my salvation when she learned she was carrying me. I have observed that at her advanced age (91) she is of a notion that I am "saved" and have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior as you explained - accepted that he died on the cross for my sins. I have contributed to that notion albeit somewhat dishonestly. My sister raised her eyebrows and started to chastise me at a recent gathering. I held my hand up in a motion to still her (boy do women hate that!!!). I later told her that she should not take something from my mother of that dear nature at her advanced years. My sister is a Christian and doesn't think that is right. The point, I am open to prayers but I am not soliciting them.

In the absence of accepting a divine explanation for the Universe and the "Holy" order of the Bible, detailed discussion is lacking in substance. I cannot predict the future but I would speculate that given my deeply based doubts, I will pass from this earth in my biological form with about the same philosophy that I maintain now.

In graduate school, I took a 600 level course "Modern Theories of Evolution". It was not "Modern Facts of Evolution". Understand that the scientific method is based on the premise of "theory". But do not make the mistake of diminishing theory. Just because a concept is in the theory phase, we don't throw up our hands and give up. Man is limited by his mental capacity. Just because we do not "know" the means or substance of an idea does not mean that a natural explanation does not exist. That has long been a failing of mankind. When man does not know the what, how, or why, he creates a fairytail or divinity to provide the anwser.
 
inyati13":2mg6lrso said:
In graduate school, I took a 600 level course "Modern Theories of Evolution". It was not "Modern Facts of Evolution". Understand that the scientific method is based on the premise of "theory". But do not make the mistake of diminishing theory. Just because a concept is in the theory phase, we don't throw up our hands and give up. Man is limited by his mental capacity. Just because we do not "know" the means or substance of an idea does not mean that a natural explanation does not exist. That has long been a failing of mankind. When man does not know the what, how, or why, he creates a fairytail or divinity to provide the anwser.
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Yet One can create a theory with an overwhelming amount of support, but one valid piece of contrary evidence can strike it down...so it is for the non-believer. No proof of anything so he comes to a dead end. (literally) and does not even have hope. In actuality more modern science and archaeology continue to give more and more evidence not only for creation but for all that is recorded in the Word of God. Sometimes man "with his limited mental capacity" must rely on something more than himself. For whatever it's worth Inyati I pray for you, Melking and Sky as you have all professed your unbelief. Blessing !!!! ;-)
 
TexasBred":30owoz72 said:
inyati13":30owoz72 said:
In graduate school, I took a 600 level course "Modern Theories of Evolution". It was not "Modern Facts of Evolution". Understand that the scientific method is based on the premise of "theory". But do not make the mistake of diminishing theory. Just because a concept is in the theory phase, we don't throw up our hands and give up. Man is limited by his mental capacity. Just because we do not "know" the means or substance of an idea does not mean that a natural explanation does not exist. That has long been a failing of mankind. When man does not know the what, how, or why, he creates a fairytail or divinity to provide the anwser.
Click to expand...
Yet One can create a theory with an overwhelming amount of support, but one valid piece of contrary evidence can strike it down...so it is for the non-believer. No proof of anything so he comes to a dead end. (literally) and does not even have hope. In actuality more modern science and archaeology continue to give more and more evidence not only for creation but for all that is recorded in the Word of God. Sometimes man "with his limited mental capacity" must rely on something more than himself. For whatever it's worth Inyati I pray for you, Melking and Sky as you have all professed your unbelief. Blessing !!!! ;-)
Click to expand...

TexasBred, you are a good man. I say that with my heart not my mind. I believe there are so many good people. But with the same sincerity, I say to you: The concept of divinity for me is akin to the concept of driving a nail with an imaginary hammer!

Do not make the mistake of thinking it is my education. My inability to accept the abstract thought of divine beings pre-dates my college years. I have two younger brothers who never spent one day in higher learning and they both reject the concept of divinity. We live in a world of matter and physical properties. It just does not seem to mix with supernatural and divine forces. This may sound like I am poking fun but not so. Believing in divine beings for me is like believing in Santa Claus, ghosts, bigfoot and the tooth fairy. There has to be more to it than smoke and mirrors. For me, divine creation would be the same as believing in witch doctors and magic.

I have wondered why my mind totally rejects the supernatural. I wonder if in a simple basic way, I am wired to only know and believe what I can see, feel or taste. I often say, if I cannot measure it or weigh it, it does not exist.
 

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