Polled Hereford EPD's which would you buy?

[Alan]

Hi all,

Going into my 5th year with Polled Herefords and still can't get a grip on EPD's. In the past I have bought cows with low BW's and high MM. I'm getting some 500lb weanlings at 6 months. I'm going to a state assoc. sale next month and got looking at other EPD's, such as YW, WW and M&G. So I'll give you 4 examples of open cows I'm looking at and would appreciate your opinions on them. Remember I'm small time, this year I had 9 calves and sold 6, just like anything else with a hobby, just trying to do the best I can at it. All the following are hiefers born in Jan or Feb, (if that matters in your opinions).

1. BW 0.9(P+), WW 46(P), YW 83(P), MM 18(P), M&G 41. No big names I know of in the pedigree, back 3 gens to Felton 517.

2. BW 5.9(P+), WW 53(P), YW 95(P), MM 14(P), M&G 41. She's a Remitall Online 122L daughter out of a Spidel cow.

3. BW 5.5(.35), WW 45(.21), YW 78(.18), MM 19(.09),M&G41. She's a Call 100 daughter out of an O'reilly 23c Arrow daughter.

4. BW 3.9(P+), WW 51(P), YW 90(P), MM 13(P), M&G 38. She's a online daughter out a cow I don't know much about, nothing stands out in the predigree.

Please tell me in your own opinions which would you buy and why.

Thank you for any input you may have. Sorry about the smile face tried twice to delete just comes back when I type in (.18) at the position. It should read .18.

Thanks again,
Alan

 

[dun]

Balanced traits are the key. I would look at the carcass traits on them and ersearch their parents and grandparents. But unless something drastic pops up, there's only one that I find acceptable and that's the first one. But I'm very picky about the cows that I'll consider bringing in from outside and have my own selection criteria.

dun

 

[Brandonm2]

There is only an 8 pound variation in the weaning wt EPD, a 6 pound variation in the milk EPD, and only a 3 pound spread in the cows' M+G value, and no accuracy in any of those numbers. Those cows numbers are so similar I would throw them all out and evaluate that set visually. If I had to pick I would go with the big Remitall Online cow; but beware that she "MIGHT" be a moose in person.

 

[El_Putzo]

I have to agree with Dun, probably mostly because I am partial to Feltons cattle, of course if you had to go back 3 gens to find 517, she may not have much feltons blood in her. Her numbers are the most acceptable to me without knowing any carcass numbers.

BWs over 5 scare me, probably because of my inexperience, but nevertheless, I usually rule out anything with a BW epd of greater than 5. That being said, someday I'd like to try some Remitall stock, if for no other reason than just to see if the high WW and YW epds on most of their bulls really do hold true. I'm trying to raise replacements now, and don't really want 1500-1800lb cows, so I'll stick with some smaller FS bulls. I've seen several online calves in person, and really couldn't complain about any of them. As always, visual inspection is a large part of your decision, consider FS, udder, disposition and so on.

 

[dun]

There is only an 8 pound variation in the weaning wt EPD, a 6 pound variation in the milk EPD, and only a 3 pound spread in the cows' M+G value, and no accuracy in any of those numbers. Those cows numbers are so similar I would throw them all out and evaluate that set visually. If I had to pick I would go with the big Remitall Online cow; but beware that she "MIGHT" be a moose in person.

The small variation in the WW and YW were one of the factors that I like about the 1st cow. Why go with a 5 lb heavier BW to only get a couple of pounds more at weanling or yearling. My persoanl minimum for milk is 18 and only 2 are in that range. But that's my selection cirteria. If a purebred cow is expected to raise a growthy crossbred calf she had better have plenty of milk.

dun

 

[jkwilson]

I wouldn't make the mistake of relying on the EPDs to make your decision. Look at the animals, and pick the best ones structurally, then look at EPDs to make up your mind. They only represent traits that aren't apparent to the eye.
That said, I can tell you which of those will go for the most money:#2 and #4. What secret EPD did I use? It's called the popularity of the bull she's out of. Online calves are going higher than a kite right now. If you want more detail, post the heifers' reg#s, and we can look at their pedigree on herfnet.

More advice, which you didn't ask for would be to skip the heifers unless you are showing, and go for bred cows. You will normally be able to get a proven 6 or 7 year old bred cow for around the same price as these pretty heifers, and you will have a calf next year, and a proven producer to boot.

3 years ago, I was bidding on a choice lot of a cow and her beautiful heifer calf at a sale. I wanted the cow, but got outbid. Other guy took the calf, and I got the cow for $375 less. She's been a great one for me. Saw a sale catalog this fall with the heifer calf selling as a 3 year old. Went to the sale, and wouldn't have traded my now 9 year old cow for her.

 

[txag]

i will start off by saying that i commend you, Alan, for wanting to increase your knowledge & understanding of epd's, but i don't think anyone could tell you which one to buy from the epd's alone. even with the scant pedigree information, it'd be a hard call, and i agree with Brandon in that they're all so close, there's really no reason to choose one over the other from the epd's alone.

i'm guessing these are heifers? you first mention "open cows" & then call them heifers. were they born in Jan '05?

if they're heifers, as almost everyone else has suggested, i'd look at conformation, performance data (do you have actual weights on them?), birth & weaning ratios, & pigment. also, look at the dams (if you have the opportunity) & look at the same things as well as udders.

you also mention not recognizing some of the bloodlines in some of the pedigrees. maybe someone else can help you?

 

[Alan]

Thanks for all the replies! I'm getting a pretty good idea on the answer to my question. For Polled Hereford a BW of 5.9 seems a bit high. The 5.9 BW is the highest birth weight EPD in the catalog, I listed it because it's an Online daughter.

Here are the hiefers reg. names and numbers:

1. HYALITE TS LASS 530 #P42564441

2. RR SPIDEL MISS P 910 ( may not be a space between P and 910). #P42564651

3. MCA MISS CENTERFOLD 508R. #P42585015

4. RR BONDED LADY P 824 (Again may not be a space after the P). #P42564649

Both 1 and 2 are a little older 8/04 and 9/04, but mostly I'm hoping to compare the "I want factor" with EPD"s and certain lines of cattle.

Thanks again for all of your input.
Alan

 

[dun]

Based strictly on EPDs, all but the first one are throw outs based on their calving ease alone, way below breed average. They're all above average for maternal calving ease, but the first one is head and shoulders above the others. The only things I don;t care for are her milk, 16 is lower then I like and her REA and fat. Seems like muscle (butt and flank) are easier to put on calves then REA and marbeling. Fat ca be pretty hard to do away with, but that can be managed around.
Of the 4, I wouldn;t buy any of them based strictly on their EPDs. But I would at least look at #1 and ignore the others. That pretty face thing catches me sometimes buying a heifer that I probably wouldn;t have bought otherwise, but we've not been disappointed on any heifer that was in our A or B list.

dun

 

[El_Putzo]

From my limited amount of knowledge of some of these older sires, #3 and 4 seem to be bred with more of a show background with Online, Devo and Bond in their pedigrees. I like that first one even more now though, since she traces back to 517 at least 3 times that I saw. As mentioned above, use your "EPD Favorite" as a tool after you've ruled out the ones that don't meet the visual inspection. Good Luck.

 

[txag]

i have to disagree with dun. i certainly wouldn't automatically rule out any of them based on their bw epd alone. ollie's going to love me for this.....epd's are not always the best indication of performance. they're a selection tool to aid our breeding & buying decisions. we have several females in our herd tracing back to Basic that are around +6 on bw epd & they didn't have high birthweights nor have any of their calves. we also sold a cow this spring that was a +16 MM & didn't have enough milk to drown a mouse.

some things of note from the pedigrees:
#1 traces back to 517 on the top & bottom
#2 has a horned dam so she'll carry a horned gene but also has a lot of JR bloodlines in her background
#3 i would suggest checking the milk production of her mother
#4 traces to Bond & Barnone on the dam side. we have some Barnone daughters that have done well for us (one of them used as a donor) but he's pretty far back in the pedigree so hard to say how much influence he'd have

 

[whatabull]

I would eyeball, 1 first and 4 second, toss two three. See how the they look in person. still like them go for it. :cboy:

 

[certherfbeef]

#2 has a horned dam so she'll carry a horned gene but also has a lot of JR bloodlines in her background

I like this.

I still have a few Rice bred cows here. Some of the best cattle in my field. And of course...I don't mind the occasional horned gene.

Based on txag's fine reporting job and with out seeing them in the flesh... my vote is for #2 based on my comments above. And as much as I hate it...#1. 517 top and bottom will make one of the easiest fleshing animals on the face of the earth. As much as I hate my 517 daughters, they stay fat in a drought nursing a calf with no supplement and raising that calf to over 500 lbs. Ya James...I just did it again didn't I
I'm going to screw around and talk myself into likeing that cow yet. :x

 

[Brandonm2]

There is only an 8 pound variation in the weaning wt EPD, a 6 pound variation in the milk EPD, and only a 3 pound spread in the cows' M+G value, and no accuracy in any of those numbers. Those cows numbers are so similar I would throw them all out and evaluate that set visually. If I had to pick I would go with the big Remitall Online cow; but beware that she "MIGHT" be a moose in person.

The small variation in the WW and YW were one of the factors that I like about the 1st cow. Why go with a 5 lb heavier BW to only get a couple of pounds more at weanling or yearling. My persoanl minimum for milk is 18 and only 2 are in that range. But that's my selection cirteria. If a purebred cow is expected to raise a growthy crossbred calf she had better have plenty of milk.

dun

He is buying a cow NOT a bull so Birth wt EPD really is not a major factor to me unless she is a heifer bred to a dangerously high BWT epd bull OR is a donor (and I don't think any of these four are donor candidates based on the original numbers). You can take a cow with a 5.9 Bwt EPD and breed her to a bull like ANHINGA VIC S84 K16 with a bwt of -1 and suddenly have progeny with a b.wt. EPD of 2.5 and be better than most of the breed.

There is only a 4 pound difference in milk between 1 and 2 and 2 is the growthier of the two so they have the exact same 41 M&G number. Everybody is chasing a high milk number without any reguard of how it effects cow efficiency and fertility but I remember a lot of Enforcer daughters (horrible single digit milk EPDs) that never had any difficulty weaning a good calf so I am not prepared to cull a heifer simply over a 14 milk EPD.

Based ONLY on what Alan said in his original post, I would rather have the growthy Remitall Online daughter than the other three. If I went back and looked up each cow at the Herf website to look at the carcass EPDs and explore the pedigrees in more detail I could rank them literally in any other order. If you have gotten three heifers with the same M&G number and one with just 3 pounds less, and no pedigrees that I just LOVE; it all comes down to visual evaluation for me.

 

[dun]

He is buying a cow NOT a bull so Birth wt EPD really is not a major factor to me unless she is a heifer bred to a dangerously high BWT epd bull OR is a donor (and I don't think any of these four are donor candidates based on the original numbers). You can take a cow with a 5.9 Bwt EPD and breed her to a bull like ANHINGA VIC S84 K16 with a bwt of -1 and suddenly have progeny with a b.wt. EPD of 2.5 and be better than most of the breed.

There is only a 4 pound difference in milk between 1 and 2 and 2 is the growthier of the two so they have the exact same 41 M&G number. Everybody is chasing a high milk number without any reguard of how it effects cow efficiency and fertility but I remember a lot of Enforcer daughters (horrible single digit milk EPDs) that never had any difficulty weaning a good calf so I am not prepared to cull a heifer simply over a 14 milk EPD.

Based ONLY on what Alan said in his original post, I would rather have the growthy Remitall Online daughter than the other three. If I went back and looked up each cow at the Herf website to look at the carcass EPDs and explore the pedigrees in more detail I could rank them literally in any other order. If you have gotten three heifers with the same M&G number and one with just 3 pounds less, and no pedigrees that I just LOVE; it all comes down to visual evaluation for me.

i have to disagree with dun.

That's why there are horse races! Differences of opinions.

dun

 

[El_Putzo]

And as much as I hate it...#1. 517 top and bottom will make one of the easiest fleshing animals on the face of the earth. As much as I hate my 517 daughters, they stay fat in a drought nursing a calf with no supplement and raising that calf to over 500 lbs. Ya James...I just did it again didn't I
I'm going to screw around and talk myself into likeing that cow yet. :x

Aren't you glad I'm around to serve as a reminder to you!?!? :lol: :lol: Going to look at a 517 grandaughter tonight!

 

[greenwillowherefords]

:clap: :clap: Txag said it as well as it needs to be said, and yes, Ollie would be proud!

I have some 1984 Polled Hereford World issues, and in those days, Spidel was a top name.

A couple of thoughts on Enforcer; he was one of those bulls who has stood the test of time IMO. Still in a lot of good pedigrees, and if I recall correctly, still maintains a YW EPD of 61, which for a bull of his era is excellent. How many are aware that Keynote 20X is double bred Enforcer 107H?

I have a cow with a 6 or 7 MM with a 5 month old, 500# heifer at side right now, and the calf has never had creep. They came through a drought this summer; cow lost a little BCS, heifer didn't. Actual performance supercedes EPDs here.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

i have to disagree with dun. i certainly wouldn't automatically rule out any of them based on their bw epd alone. ollie's going to love me for this.....epd's are not always the best indication of performance. they're a selection tool to aid our breeding & buying decisions. we have several females in our herd tracing back to Basic that are around +6 on bw epd & they didn't have high birthweights nor have any of their calves. we also sold a cow this spring that was a +16 MM & didn't have enough milk to drown a mouse.

some things of note from the pedigrees:
#1 traces back to 517 on the top & bottom
#2 has a horned dam so she'll carry a horned gene but also has a lot of JR bloodlines in her background
#3 i would suggest checking the milk production of her mother
#4 traces to Bond & Barnone on the dam side. we have some Barnone daughters that have done well for us (one of them used as a donor) but he's pretty far back in the pedigree so hard to say how much influence he'd have

This is one of "DOC'S THUMB RULES". "ALWAYS check the Dam when buying replacement Heifers!"

DOC HARRIS

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

Well in my opinion, I would go with the animal that has the Feltons 517 gene in her genetic background. Feltons 517 was a really good bull that made two National Champion bulls; Boyd Heavy Hitter 4007 and MSU STAR Headliner. Also, Feltons 517 sired a another great bull that was not shown ever and that is DR World Class 517 10H. I do like Online and his daughters are also doing a great job weaning off calves, but that one calf had a birthweight of a +5.9. That is kinda of steep, but it is all but what type of cattle your raising. I like to keep the birth weight around 4.5. So, IMO I would go with the Feltons 517 genetic animal. Take care. :cboy: