Pneumonia-9 mo. bull

[Gale Seddon]

This young bull was treated with Nuflor and Flunix, okay for a few days, then back to rapid breathing...he received Draxxin and more flunix two days ago. The Draxxin seemed to have a quick positive effect and he's been getting aspirin crushed in his feed for two days. Tonight, he was breathing rapidly again, even panting after he ate, which really freaked me out. Vet's coming back early tomorrow morning and will probably take some blood and give more flunix. Said we have to wait 15 days before more Draxxin, but it helps them keep eating and drinking. I think the heatwave is really compromising this situation and I don't want to lose him; I'm hoping the heat will back off by tomorrow night, but I feel as if I'm playing this hour by hour, or day by day. Any thoughts?

 

[Howdyjabo]

thats alot of meds== and treatment seems disorganised to me.

After giving Draxin you are not supposed to do anything for at least four days-- unless the animal goes downhill bad.
It takes that long to get what responce you are going to get.
Useing Draxin right takes nerves of steel

If its recovering from being sick its gonna be breathing hard in this kind of heat.Open mouthed panting and foaming is not unusual.


If there is some lung damage I FEEL like antihistimines help during hot spells.
Looseing animals in this heat is common-- they just can't handle the added stress on compromised lungs. All the meds in the world won't change that.

 

[msscamp]

I have to agree with Howdyjabo on the amount of meds and the disorganized administering of them. I personally don't like Nuflor for respiratory things (we've never used Draxin) - we've never had good luck with it. You might want to consider Baytril, as it seems to knock out this type of thing much better in my honest opinion. We have rarely had to dose twice when using Baytril and Flunexin.

 

[milkmaid]

Agreed with msscamp. Baytril's my personal favorite for respiratory - however Nuflor is my second choice. Both are a whole lot cheaper than Draxxin. :lol:

I usually figure if a calf is treated, starts to look better, then goes down again -- either the level of antibiotic in the system is decreasing to the point it is no longer effective (and you need to retreat!), or the antibiotic just plain isn't effective, and the Banamine you gave masked problems until it started to wear off.

I'd personally disagree with someone saying you have to wait that long before treating again. I've been known, many times, to use the single-dose dosage, with the multi-day therapy.

I'll defer to Karen's experience with Draxxin as I've never used it before. I do recall that it doesn't work near as fast as Baytril or Nuflor (theraputic concentrations within 60 minutes).

I used Rally20 (aka Recover) for the first time this week and I think I like it. It is an antihistamine and my vet tells me it helps open their lungs so they can breath better... I'll have to use it again a time or two on some other cases before I really have a solid opinion of how well I feel it works, but as of right now I like it. Like it enough I just bought the whole bottle from my vet. :lol:

Might give that a try, Gale. My vet tells me a lot of folks are having trouble with summer pneumonia, which sort of surprised me -- I usually think of pneumonia as a winter thing. I learn something new all the time! :lol:

Good luck with him -- keep us posted.

 

[Gale Seddon]

Yeah, I always wondered about pneumonia in the summer, thinking it had to be a cold wet weather thing. I really appreciate the feedback and will let you know what happens. Hoping the heat wave is supposed to back off tonight, and maybe that will ease things for him. Thanks everyone!

 

[Gale Seddon]

Quick update....a different animal this morning, no hard breathing, temp 103, vet said lungs "sound" better than the other day, that his temp may continue to rise and fall, it will take some time...gave more flunix. He's eating and drinking okay. Terrible heat but maybe this is the last day, and I think that takes a toll on him. He's got shade though, plenty of water, is out grazing right now.

Knock on wood, fortunately we don't get many sick ones, so my lack of experience with sickness makes me over-react? I think I may have pushed the panic button last night, seeing him pant, etc., but better safe than sorry.

Thanks again for suggestions and comments everyone!

 

[ALACOWMAN]

could be highlander and heat. they have too pant too cool down. it takes all night for their body temp to return to normal if is he like the the first thing early in the morning. heck mine our panting right now and their half brahman

 

[Alice]

milkmaid,

In re: rally 20...is it relatively new? I'd not heard of it. We have a heifer that's been to the vet a couple of times with respiratory illness/pneumonia. We're still treating her, and she'll probably go again this weekend. Neither one of the vets mentioned rally 20. I'm curious about it. Are you still having good luck with it?

Flunix/banamine: Both vets that she's seen (same clinic) with this calf have given flunix with the shots they've given. She got 24 ccs subQ on a Saturday, then we were to give 24ccs subQ on Wednesday. We are headed into the 3 week with this. Each time Van has taken the calf to the vet, he's asked if we should give flunix on the following wednesday with the nuflor. Both vets were emphatic about NOT doing that. Says it's hard on the gut. I'm having to rethink my position on flunix now...used to be everytime one of those auction bottle babies got a shot of nuflor (and a squirt of probios) for respiratory junk, I'd give it a shot of banamine. I'm beginning to wonder if it did more harm than good in the long run scheme of things because of the gut irritation.

For some reason, at least around here, Baytril just doesn't cut it. I don't know why...I just know that these calf raisers don't even buy it anymore to keep on hand. I've never had much luck with it, either, dangit.

Anyway, this is a long way around of picking your brain about Rally 20, I know. I'm just wondering if it's worth trying on this heifer. I'm gonna have Van ask the vet about it this Saturday when the heifer once again heads that direction.

Thanks for mentioning Rally 20...it's always worth an ask...

Alice

 

[milkmaid]

Alice, far as I know it's not a new thing. At least since '03 (expiration date on one bottle). It's also sold under the name of Re-covr (or some variation on that, can never remember exactly how to write it), drug name triplennamine hydrochloride. Runs about $17/250mLs.

I still like it as of today -- calf I'd been treating was back up to 44bpm today (from 40 yesterday) with the last time I'd treated with Rally 20 being yesterday morning. I think I have a chronic lunger on my hands but Rally20 helps. :roll: Take a look at my post on "Is this shipping fever?" on the boards.

Nuflor is sort of hard on the gut - causes damage to the intestinal flora, something that can be fixed by probiotics, to quote Vicky.

As to the banamine -- from what I recall the label says that when used per label directions, there are no warnings or contraindications or side effects.

Now -- 24cc's????! What size "calf" are you treating? Standard dose is 1-2mL/100lbs every 24 hours, so you're treating for a 600-1200lb animal. :shock: Every drug has a half-life/elimination time. You cannot extend that by giving a higher dose of X drug.

On to Nuflor -- are you only giving this calf Nuflor once a week? if so, I wouldn't wonder that she's not cleared up yet. That's much too long in between treatments.

Not sure if you were really asking for advice, but hopefully there's something in there you'll find helpful. Have a good day.

 

[Howdyjabo]

Its a real shame-- but the sad truth is that alot of vets don't have a clue how to treat for shipping fever.
And even if they do=== they see it so rarely(few people have them treat their calves) that they don't know whats working and whats not.


And what works this week is not what will work next week.
And the miracle drug this year- is worthless next year- then good again the next...........
Trial and error are the tools- and without dealing with it over and over you can't understand the patterns.
Just like with humans certain "bugs" cycle around at different times- so different meds cycle in and out of effectiveness. What bugs are flaoting around here won't be floating around across the country. So what works here- won't work there.
What workd on one calf won't neccesarily work on another.

Even if you only have a few head of calves you should have a treatment protocol in place- so when it happens you don't panic and just start throwing things into the calf.
Pick a drug preferably a broad spectrum(and pick your follow up drug) ,READ THE DIRRECTIONS(even if the vet prescribed it), follow the correct doseing and schedule(unless the vet has a good reason to adapt it), take temperatures. When you switch know why you are switching-- ie the temperature did not drop and the calf looks much worse-- NOT the calf doesn't look cured.
if you are not sure-- wait one more day.
Mixing meds should be taken very seriously-- its not a matter of the more the better.
We treat ALOT of shipping fever- and rarely do I ever switch meds in the middle of an initial treatment. After that treatment has OBVIOsULY failed then I start fishing around for what works.

Understand that when a calf gets sick and you treat it you won't always see immediate results-- but changing meds willy nilly- or not giving the full course no matter how good the calf looks--- is just a way to guaranttee to up your chances of getting a chronic.

 

[Alice]

Milkmaid,

Thanks for the quick response.

Now -- 24cc's????! What size "calf" are you treating? Standard dose is 1-2mL/100lbs every 24 hours, so you're treating for a 600-1200lb animal. Every drug has a half-life/elimination time. You cannot extend that by giving a higher dose of X drug.

The calf weighs about 350 lbs. The 24 ccs is what the vets have given it on Saturdays, then we are to do the same on Wednesdays.

On to Nuflor -- are you only giving this calf Nuflor once a week? if so, I wouldn't wonder that she's not cleared up yet. That's much too long in between treatments.

I guess I answered that already...24ccs subQ is what she's been getting twice weekly...at the vet's on Saturday, then here on Wednesdays. Van will take her back in this Saturday. The vet said if she's not well this Saturday, a different course of treatment will begin...

So far, the vet doesn't think she's chronic...and we're doing what we can to keep that from happening. I am gonna have Van ask the vet if he thinks the calf will benefit from Rally 20.

Thanks, milkmaid.

Alice

 

[Gale Seddon]

Milkmaid, Karen, Alice, this is an interesting discussion....and I'm learning from it. I have to ask something about the banamine masking the problem. Once you get a diagnosis, isn't it appropriate to give the banamine to address the uncomfortable symptoms (fever, whatever). Won't it make the animal feel better? Are you saying that this 'masking' makes one inclined not to give additional antibiotics and, for that reason, the condition persists? (Forgive my ignorance, I have zero medical background, and I'm trying to understand all this.)

What is the difference between 'shipping fever' and the type of 'pneumonia' that the little bull has? When we got a cow and a bull shipped in from Oklahoma a couple of years ago, BOTH came down with 'shipping fever' after about 8 days (right on schedule?). The vet gave penicillin and banamine, as I recall. It was not a big deal. But our little 9-mo. bull's 'pneumonia' seems like a more complicated matter and, I think, will persist quite a bit longer, ugh! (He was okay tonight, almost cleaned his plate, breathing normally...maybe because I got home late and missed the hottest part of the day).

Oh, Alacowman, this bull is a Dexter. But that's okay, LOL. If he were a Highland, I might have to get the clippers out.

 

[Alice]

Milkmaid, Karen, Alice, this is an interesting discussion....and I'm learning from it. I have to ask something about the banamine masking the problem. Once you get a diagnosis, isn't it appropriate to give the banamine to address the uncomfortable symptoms (fever, whatever). Won't it make the animal feel better? Are you saying that this 'masking' makes one inclined not to give additional antibiotics and, for that reason, the condition persists? (Forgive my ignorance, I have zero medical background, and I'm trying to understand all this.)

What is the difference between 'shipping fever' and the type of 'pneumonia' that the little bull has? When we got a cow and a bull shipped in from Oklahoma a couple of years ago, BOTH came down with 'shipping fever' after about 8 days (right on schedule?). The vet gave penicillin and banamine, as I recall. It was not a big deal. But our little 9-mo. bull's 'pneumonia' seems like a more complicated matter and, I think, will persist quite a bit longer, ugh! (He was okay tonight, almost cleaned his plate, breathing normally...maybe because I got home late and missed the hottest part of the day).

Oh, Alacowman, this bull is a Dexter. But that's okay, LOL. If he were a Highland, I might have to get the clippers out.

I'm not concerned about banamine masking the problem as much as I am concerned about the vets saying what it does to their gut...however, I'm all for helping the calves to feel better. I know that I'll not overdo the banamine anymore...I'll follow the directions to the letter with it, but that won't keep me from giving them banamine when I KNOW they are in distress, temp or not.

We've had this calf since she was about a week old.
The calf doesn't have shipping fever...she has a respiratory something most likely caused by the drought, pollen/dust in the air...whatever. She was vaccinated to the hilt...none of the other calves with her have displayed the slightest symptom. The vet says it's just one of those things...and I tend to believe him. Right now we are just trying to get her past the point that she turns chronic.

The vets...I don't have their education...so all I can do at this point is rely on their skill and training. My brother is convinced she's chronic. It gave me great pleasure to inform him that, according to our vet (his also), that she is not.

Keep your fingers crossed for us, ok?

Alice

 

[msscamp]

Milkmaid, Karen, Alice, this is an interesting discussion....and I'm learning from it. I have to ask something about the banamine masking the problem. Once you get a diagnosis, isn't it appropriate to give the banamine to address the uncomfortable symptoms (fever, whatever). Won't it make the animal feel better? Are you saying that this 'masking' makes one inclined not to give additional antibiotics and, for that reason, the condition persists? (Forgive my ignorance, I have zero medical background, and I'm trying to understand all this.)

What is the difference between 'shipping fever' and the type of 'pneumonia' that the little bull has? When we got a cow and a bull shipped in from Oklahoma a couple of years ago, BOTH came down with 'shipping fever' after about 8 days (right on schedule?). The vet gave penicillin and banamine, as I recall. It was not a big deal. But our little 9-mo. bull's 'pneumonia' seems like a more complicated matter and, I think, will persist quite a bit longer, ugh! (He was okay tonight, almost cleaned his plate, breathing normally...maybe because I got home late and missed the hottest part of the day).

Oh, Alacowman, this bull is a Dexter. But that's okay, LOL. If he were a Highland, I might have to get the clippers out.

We've had this calf since she was about a week old.
The calf doesn't have shipping fever...she has a respiratory something most likely caused by the drought, pollen/dust in the air...whatever.
Alice

Alice, is this calf in a corral? If so she might have dust pneumonia. Have you tried putting a sprinkler in the corral to keep the dust settled? We do that with the weaning calves and it really helps! My fingers are crossed!

 

[Howdyjabo]

Banamine masks the symptoms to base treatments on.
I still use it to drop really high temperatures(105.5+) down some at the initial treatment. But only if I am useing an every other day or longer med(which all my first line defense are nowadays).
By then the Banamine is not effecting the temperature or calfs attitude so I can really see how the initial treatment worked. -But more importantly I have a new accurate temperature base to compare the third treatment to.
If the temperature goes up- I know its a backset and not just the Banamine wearing off. Or if you keep giving Banamine you never see the temperature go up so you are behind in identifying a treatment failure.

I don't think there is very much value in useing Banimine to make the calf feel better- unless it has a very high temperature that can cause lung damage. They don't get any better faster than one without Banamine- and they don't get any sicker than one without Banamine.
In fact I THINK that the people I know that rely on Banamine don't do as well with sick calves as I do-- so it may actually be harmful as well as misleading.

Shipping fever isn't actually any one "disease" or bacteria or virus.
Its a stressor issue making calves susseptable to whatever is around-- and theres LOTS of things to be exposed to at stockyards. The added stress leads these things easily into pneumonia.
So a case of "shipping fever" could be the exact same thing a farm calf comes down with. But you wouldn't call what the farm calf came down with "shipping fever"-- its just sick

 

[milkmaid]

Flunix/banamine: Both vets that she's seen (same clinic) with this calf have given flunix with the shots they've given. She got 24 ccs subQ on a Saturday, then we were to give 24ccs subQ on Wednesday.

On to Nuflor -- are you only giving this calf Nuflor once a week? if so, I wouldn't wonder that she's not cleared up yet. That's much too long in between treatments.

I guess I answered that already...24ccs subQ is what she's been getting twice weekly...at the vet's on Saturday, then here on Wednesdays. Van will take her back in this Saturday. The vet said if she's not well this Saturday, a different course of treatment will begin...

Guess I'd better back up...:lol:, do you mean 24ccs of Banamine, or 24ccs of Nuflor? I was under the original impression you were talking about Banamine, not Nuflor. Sorry if I got it wrong. 24ccs would be an ideal dose for Nuflor as the single-dose therapy.

However, I probably would go with the single-dose dosage but the multi-day therapy -- personal preference on a severe case. Expensive though.

I have to ask something about the banamine masking the problem. Once you get a diagnosis, isn't it appropriate to give the banamine to address the uncomfortable symptoms (fever, whatever). Won't it make the animal feel better? Are you saying that this 'masking' makes one inclined not to give additional antibiotics and, for that reason, the condition persists? (Forgive my ignorance, I have zero medical background, and I'm trying to understand all this.)

Yes, yes, and yes, to all the questions. My personal opinion is that a person IS inclined to stop treatment when the animal visually looks better (and I usually get away with it with scours ) -- and that I've gotten the best results from antibiotic therapy when I pick a treatment plan, chart out exactly what I'm going to do and use, and then stick with it.

 

[Alice]

milkmaid,

You didn't misunderstand anything...I reread what I'd written and I can well understand how you came up with 24 ccs banamine. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for your help.

Alice

 

[Alice]

Milkmaid, Karen, Alice, this is an interesting discussion....and I'm learning from it. I have to ask something about the banamine masking the problem. Once you get a diagnosis, isn't it appropriate to give the banamine to address the uncomfortable symptoms (fever, whatever). Won't it make the animal feel better? Are you saying that this 'masking' makes one inclined not to give additional antibiotics and, for that reason, the condition persists? (Forgive my ignorance, I have zero medical background, and I'm trying to understand all this.)

What is the difference between 'shipping fever' and the type of 'pneumonia' that the little bull has? When we got a cow and a bull shipped in from Oklahoma a couple of years ago, BOTH came down with 'shipping fever' after about 8 days (right on schedule?). The vet gave penicillin and banamine, as I recall. It was not a big deal. But our little 9-mo. bull's 'pneumonia' seems like a more complicated matter and, I think, will persist quite a bit longer, ugh! (He was okay tonight, almost cleaned his plate, breathing normally...maybe because I got home late and missed the hottest part of the day).

Oh, Alacowman, this bull is a Dexter. But that's okay, LOL. If he were a Highland, I might have to get the clippers out.

We've had this calf since she was about a week old.
The calf doesn't have shipping fever...she has a respiratory something most likely caused by the drought, pollen/dust in the air...whatever.
Alice

Alice, is this calf in a corral? If so she might have dust pneumonia. Have you tried putting a sprinkler in the corral to keep the dust settled? We do that with the weaning calves and it really helps! My fingers are crossed!

No, the calf isn't in a corral. She's in a large area that has the same amount of vegetation as the rest of the farm has right now, minus what she and the others have grazed down...and that vegetation is as dry and crumbly as anything I've ever in my life seen. I wouldn't be at all surprised that the pneumonia she has is caused by irritation from all the dried up crap that blows around in the air. And, wouldn't you know, we've had days with high wind, on top of everything else. I guess she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and got a lungful of whatever it was. It's just so horribly dry here.

Ya' know, tho, a sprinkler wouldn't be a bad idea...even tho there's no loose dirt (the ground is cement hard), there's plenty of loose vegetation that gets kicked up just by walking thru it...and a sprinkler my settle that. In fact, I have a big soaker hose...I think I'm gonna spread that thing out tomorrow and move it from time to time.

Thanks for the suggestion...and thanks for the crossed fingers.

Alice

 

[msscamp]

Milkmaid, Karen, Alice, this is an interesting discussion....and I'm learning from it. I have to ask something about the banamine masking the problem. Once you get a diagnosis, isn't it appropriate to give the banamine to address the uncomfortable symptoms (fever, whatever). Won't it make the animal feel better? Are you saying that this 'masking' makes one inclined not to give additional antibiotics and, for that reason, the condition persists? (Forgive my ignorance, I have zero medical background, and I'm trying to understand all this.)

What is the difference between 'shipping fever' and the type of 'pneumonia' that the little bull has? When we got a cow and a bull shipped in from Oklahoma a couple of years ago, BOTH came down with 'shipping fever' after about 8 days (right on schedule?). The vet gave penicillin and banamine, as I recall. It was not a big deal. But our little 9-mo. bull's 'pneumonia' seems like a more complicated matter and, I think, will persist quite a bit longer, ugh! (He was okay tonight, almost cleaned his plate, breathing normally...maybe because I got home late and missed the hottest part of the day).

Oh, Alacowman, this bull is a Dexter. But that's okay, LOL. If he were a Highland, I might have to get the clippers out.

We've had this calf since she was about a week old.
The calf doesn't have shipping fever...she has a respiratory something most likely caused by the drought, pollen/dust in the air...whatever.
Alice

Alice, is this calf in a corral? If so she might have dust pneumonia. Have you tried putting a sprinkler in the corral to keep the dust settled? We do that with the weaning calves and it really helps! My fingers are crossed!

I wouldn't be at all surprised that the pneumonia she has is caused by irritation from all the dried up crap that blows around in the air. And, wouldn't you know, we've had days with high wind, on top of everything else. Alice

That is what dust pneumonia is - respiratory illness caused by dried up stuff getting stirred up and inhaled by the animals, usually resulting in coughing, general feelings of ill health and going off feed, droopy ears, dull eyes, etc. - in our case it's usually because of the frantic running around in the corral following separation from their mother. 60 calves can stir up quite a dust cloud, so we get the sprinklers going a couple of days in advance and keep them going until the calves have adjusted and settled down. No problem on the suggestion or the crossed fingers - I hope it helps and your calf comes out ok.