Pharo Influenced Heifers ?

[Ky hills]

In my opinion PCC, OCC, as well as GAR and many others have a heavy reliance on marketing. I would venture to say that in the case of frame 2-3 and maybe even frame 4 there would have to be a specific market, because around here at the regular sales those smaller framed calves would be docked significantly. When I select bulls, I don't want under a mid 5 frame and depending on the goal for the calf crop a 6-7 frame is alright with me.

 

[Ebenezer]

Looking at Gardiner -

GAR Momentum - The shining star of our recently completed sire evaluation test. Elite calving ease, early growth, bottom 25% stature, breed leading end product merit, top 15% heifer pregnancy.

GAR Advance - Special calving ease status, limited but valuable growth as he is the #3 bull of the breed for Marbling. Bottom 5% stature! Advance is a modest sized, big footed, high volume bull that specializes in live calves that consistently garner the highest value premiums at USPB!

Here he touts the smaller frame.

GAR is marketing what they have and these two bulls would be head-on mainstream competition with OCC and PCC but with better/more predictable carcass data. No doubt, folks who have huge cows are looking for downsizing type bulls as a tool and not as a norm. And there is the heifer bull market that is never going to go away. Note the leading line: calving ease is the starting point.

This week here in the SE USA, 3 barns even on a down market: $15/CWT gap on small frame and medium/large. At 5 weight that is $75 per head. A lot less than when calves were worth more last year but a big hit. Seems there used to be a PCC quote about "what's the only difference in a frame score?" and the pat answer was "2"'. It is also a loss of calf value every year that you try to maintain a small FS calf crop. At $75 per calf in 2016 I want the 2".

 

[Angus Rocks]

The commercial bred heifers at James Coffelts sale brought $1600-$2300. If you look at Pharo genetics they have quite a bit of OCC bloodlines in them to. One benefit I would see and maybe other bull breeders have this to but we calved out 36 heifers that were bred to pharo genetics and we only had to help 1 heifer in birth and that was because it had a leg turned back once we straightened it out it slid right out. The other thing I was very happy with is the calves jumped after birth and went right about business more I thought then some calves out of other breeders bulls that we had.

 

[pdfangus]

Pharo has a couple of bulls that I plan to try next year....One is Angus and one is Red Angus...

already have this years semen in the tank and scheduled to breed the first group this Saturday....I have been using Wye bulls for a couple of years now...Breeding my few cows to Alap of Wye this year. Have a Faxton of Wye heifer on the ground that I most likely will register and keep...

I saw some Pharo bred weanling steers yesterday.....they were not giants but they were not dinks either...they were on the farm of one of our more successful grass fed all natural direct to consumer producers.

 

[Ebenezer]

I saw some Pharo bred weanling steers yesterday.....they were not giants but they were not dinks either...they were on the farm of one of our more successful grass fed all natural direct to consumer producers.

Right use for them: not in the salebarn to lose $150 to $200 per head due to FS deduct.

The commercial bred heifers at James Coffelts sale brought $1600-$2300. If you look at Pharo genetics they have quite a bit of OCC bloodlines in them to. One benefit I would see and maybe other bull breeders have this to but we calved out 36 heifers that were bred to pharo genetics and we only had to help 1 heifer in birth and that was because it had a leg turned back once we straightened it out it slid right out. The other thing I was very happy with is the calves jumped after birth and went right about business more I thought then some calves out of other breeders bulls that we had.

If you want to know what they are worth to the buyer, send them thru a sale barn where 99% of cattle will go. Expect deduct for FS. I can verify it from personal use. No he said, she said.

 

[Stocker Steve]

The commercial bred heifers at James Coffelts sale brought $1600-$2300.

There is a guy up here selling that kind private treaty at the higher end of the range.
Sounds like Kit sound be selling sexed semen and we should be cashing in on his marketing. :banana:

 

[Aaron]

Small/moderate frame is great for easy keeping cows, but you better be able to breed them to big frame score bulls or your going to take a major hit when you sell the calves. Selling private only works if you have dedicated market for them. There is also the hit you will take when you sell those smaller cows for slaughter.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Kris Ringwall has been publishing some NDSU data recently:
9.2% more net revenue per ACRE with smaller cows
8.3% more net revenue per CALF with larger cows

So everyone is right?

 

[Dave]

Kris Ringwall has been publishing some NDSU data recently:
9.2% more net revenue per acre with smaller cows
8.3% more net revenue per calf with larger cows

How big was the study? Only 0.9% difference, that is easily within the margin of error.

 

[Stocker Steve]

How big was the study?

Forage data showed 144 cows.

I think the point is either approach can work for a cow/calf guy. It depends on your limitations and your goals. I have been tempted to sell off big cows. I usually cull on the two strike rule so big cows are on secret probation here. But since I usually have a forage surplus that would not make cents unless I have the extra $ to buy back 1.3 high priced Pharo influenced heifers for each big cow I sold. Or, I could just go straight to sheep. :lol2:

Capital is my major cow/calf limitation. It is even a bigger (about double $$ per acre) capital cost if I run stockers rather than cows.

 

[Angus Rocks]

I am still pondering all the things that Pharo believes in. In our herd we have 3 frame cows all the way up to 1500-1600 lb Charolais. One thing I have wondered about but havnt measured anything is what is the girth difference between the different frame sizes? Is the size difference a lot in the legs? If they convert grass and forage better why wouldn't they be better in the feedyards?

 

[Ebenezer]

I am still pondering all the things that Pharo believes in. In our herd we have 3 frame cows all the way up to 1500-1600 lb Charolais. One thing I have wondered about but havnt measured anything is what is the girth difference between the different frame sizes? Is the size difference a lot in the legs? If they convert grass and forage better why wouldn't they be better in the feedyards?

If you are willing to retain ownership and avoid the dock at the salebarn. This year on a down market it was more like $200 than the normal $150. The other thing to expect in mixing small with big, tall with short, or whatever; the second generation can go any which way. So the sorting is not done in one generation. The cattle that do well on forages (big volume) are not always the stars of the feedlot. Lot to drop on the kill floor and if they quit growing soon enough (related to FS) there will be plenty of 4s to deal with on YG.

Been working a tad on a calving ease line with better replacement heifer options with an OCC influence. First generation was OK. Most of the second generation left here last month and were the shortest cattle we have had in decades. Kept a sort but with knowledge of the dams and with individual data and selection. Sometimes you have to pay to play. Paid enough. Time to see better or quit.

 

[dun]

I am still pondering all the things that Pharo believes in. In our herd we have 3 frame cows all the way up to 1500-1600 lb Charolais. One thing I have wondered about but havnt measured anything is what is the girth difference between the different frame sizes? Is the size difference a lot in the legs? If they convert grass and forage better why wouldn't they be better in the feedyards?

The slaughtered beef still has to "fit the box". Mixing frame sizes also leads to problems with finishing at different rates. Smaller frame will finish lighter and faster. If held to about the same point as larger frame you have waste fat(lower yield grade). That's why the feedlots prefer a set range of frame and muscle. Less complications feeding sorting and grading for slaughter.

 

[Stocker Steve]

In our herd we have 3 frame cows all the way up to 1500-1600 lb Charolais.

Kit used Lowline on his biggest cows and then sorted all the variation from that. He also sells Lowline semen. I have used long bulls on small cows and got a lot of heifers with marginal capacity. The last of my small cows will leave next year. I have used muscular 5 frame bulls on big cows and got a lot of really nice heifers. I have been pleased with the AI calves out of Conquest and Charlo.

You are blessed with variation which will make sorting easier. I would skip the Lowline step and aim for females in the middle of that mix - - culling off the top and the bottom as you can.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Kris Ringwall has been publishing some NDSU data recently:
9.2% more net revenue per acre with smaller cows
8.3% more net revenue per calf with larger cows

How big was the study? Only 0.9% difference, that is easily within the margin of error.

It does have to be within the margin of error ... if you assume these are equal.

Which situation creates more PROFIT per acre under management?

 

[JWBrahman]

Looking at Gardiner -

GAR Momentum - The shining star of our recently completed sire evaluation test. Elite calving ease, early growth, bottom 25% stature, breed leading end product merit, top 15% heifer pregnancy.

GAR Advance - Special calving ease status, limited but valuable growth as he is the #3 bull of the breed for Marbling. Bottom 5% stature! Advance is a modest sized, big footed, high volume bull that specializes in live calves that consistently garner the highest value premiums at USPB!

Here he touts the smaller frame.

We should have Momentum calves on the ground, soon. I posted photos of his full brothers a while back on the Breeds board. Why use him?
Maintains good condition on forage only.
To improve the grade of commercial Brahman crossed cattle.
To reduce the frame of Brahman crossed cattle. Commercial Brangus can be 60-65 inches at the hip.

 

[Stocker Steve]

What folks are trying to address with smaller cows is the cost of land and forage. If pasture costs $350 per acre, and you can run a pair on 3 acres, than a 1,500# cow may be a great fit. If pasture costs $3500 per acre...

Our local "experts" often measure per cow. In that case - - buying big framy Holstein cross cows :banana: could max out this metric.

 

[ddd75]

guy i know just bought a OCC bull and some heifers. they are very small.

 

[HDRider]

PCC or OCC?

 

[Lucky_P]

Most of the PCC stuff is heavily OCC-influenced.
Straight OCC stuff may bring more performance and growth to the equation than PCC...'cause they're not bringing in low-performance Wye genetics, etc.

Came about *this* close to buying some Pharo semen years ago... but didn't... used a 4.0 frame bull from a 'grass-fed' genetics line... really shrunk things and produced some short dumpies that garnered a significant dock at sale time... can't imagine what those 2.5-3.0 FS things KP is pushing would do.