I recorded the PCC bull sale and watched it at my leisure. I've always been a fan of good cattle that can do it just on grass and was excited to see what they had to offer. The lot one bull sold for alot of money and I was anything but impressed. The structure was subject to critisism and seemed to be lacking what i would call adequate flesh. Anybody else catch the sale?
Pharo Bull Sale
- Thread starter Beef11
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DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
1
Beef11-
I saw part of the sale. What I saw was, IN MY OPINION, some of the worst LOOKING bulls, from a phenotype standpoint, that I have seen in many years! MANY years. I would have cut them a L-o-o-o-n-g time ago.
Pharo claims that they make big profits for the customers who use his genetics, and that is the purpose of raising beef cattle. If the combined Genetics that his cattle possess can be a profit-making factor for him and his customers, why, more power to them! It takes many different traits and characteristics in a beef animal to justify using them as seedstock, and perhaps his combination of factors will justify his philosophies of beef production. Perhaps!
But in my opinion it is a s-t-r-e-t-c-h to rationalize obviously poor phenotype and unacceptable skeletal structure and label it "Profitable Beef Production". If the 'bottom line' can stand up to harsh appraisal and come out on the "Black" side of the ledger - good for him!
I am skeptical. What I saw was certainly NOT front pasture cattle!
DOC HARRIS
Beef11":mi116utf said:
Beef11-
I saw part of the sale. What I saw was, IN MY OPINION, some of the worst LOOKING bulls, from a phenotype standpoint, that I have seen in many years! MANY years. I would have cut them a L-o-o-o-n-g time ago.
Pharo claims that they make big profits for the customers who use his genetics, and that is the purpose of raising beef cattle. If the combined Genetics that his cattle possess can be a profit-making factor for him and his customers, why, more power to them! It takes many different traits and characteristics in a beef animal to justify using them as seedstock, and perhaps his combination of factors will justify his philosophies of beef production. Perhaps!
But in my opinion it is a s-t-r-e-t-c-h to rationalize obviously poor phenotype and unacceptable skeletal structure and label it "Profitable Beef Production". If the 'bottom line' can stand up to harsh appraisal and come out on the "Black" side of the ledger - good for him!
I am skeptical. What I saw was certainly NOT front pasture cattle!
DOC HARRIS
Seems like you could / should have both - profit AND phenotype. His cattle find their base in Ohlde - whose herd supports the same type of philosophies - and it sure doesn't seem like they struggle in phenotype and, remarkably, they don't seem to have to fight so hard to be "herd" (misspelled pun intended) in the cattle world.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
I like the way they rate and rank their bulls. I don't like the prices. They had a number of mid priced blacks that did not sell at the posted minimum but they have to be doing very very well. Good for them.
I called Kit once to ask a couple quick sort questions and got a sermon... I decided not to buy bulls but I do plan to try their AI program.
I called Kit once to ask a couple quick sort questions and got a sermon... I decided not to buy bulls but I do plan to try their AI program.
Oldtimer
Well-known member
EAT BEEF":2fyz4k0g said:
:lol2: :lol2: You're just a lightweight if you haven't got a direct e-mail or two from Kit also... ;-)
I saw so little of it- that I can't really comment either... But I do know that those young grass finished bulls that some think look so terrible when young- can and do turn into some very nice looking bulls as they mature....
No Input breeding has been around forever.. and each generation of guru promoting it seems to forget.
Ma Nature does it. Ma Nature is a wonderful selector of survival traits.. and not much else. Not much else matters to her.
It is no accident that widely dispersed and genetically dissimilar feral cattle herds have eventually ended up with a very similar phenotype. While that phenotype is very good at survival.. I don't generally see them as what producers or consumers will want in the long run.
I don't believe in nursepen livestock.. but, I do think there is a compromise. I do think it takes a capable manager. Management is what separates a modern program from the ancient model of letting them fend for themselves and eating the surplus.
No input is fine for simple meat production. Quality Beef production needs management and thoughtful use of input.
I look at feral horses the same way. The phenotype is admirable as a survival model.. but.. I don't want to ride one, and I don't want to look at one standing in my pasture.
shrug. I see a world of difference between Ohlde's program and Pharos.
Ma Nature does it. Ma Nature is a wonderful selector of survival traits.. and not much else. Not much else matters to her.
It is no accident that widely dispersed and genetically dissimilar feral cattle herds have eventually ended up with a very similar phenotype. While that phenotype is very good at survival.. I don't generally see them as what producers or consumers will want in the long run.
I don't believe in nursepen livestock.. but, I do think there is a compromise. I do think it takes a capable manager. Management is what separates a modern program from the ancient model of letting them fend for themselves and eating the surplus.
No input is fine for simple meat production. Quality Beef production needs management and thoughtful use of input.
I look at feral horses the same way. The phenotype is admirable as a survival model.. but.. I don't want to ride one, and I don't want to look at one standing in my pasture.
shrug. I see a world of difference between Ohlde's program and Pharos.
Oldtimer
Well-known member
JR Grant":3qhqrwta said:
Oh absolutely---where Pharo promotes little, to no input cattle- that thrive on producibility thru higher numbers of lower weight animals that can be raised rather than production ability of the individual animals-- Ohldes-- and other operations like Diamond D (and several others) have worked on productibility of the cattle to produce well on lower input- be it because of enviroment or whatever-- These are cattle that have been bred to do well on a low input environment- but will also excell when the enviroment gives them a good situation....
DOC got quoted in this newsletter!!! My momma could always tell which of her kids was guilty of something by how much they defended themselves and how angry they got when they were busted . . . wonder what momma would say of Pharo's newsletter.
buymorebulls
Well-known member
Maybe the anti-Pharo folks can start selling bumper stickers....."KIT QUITER!"
The funny thing is, DOC wasn't a kit quitter - he was just observing what Kit agreed to in his letter - the bulls struggled phenotypically. In fact, DOC's post was quite positive I thought.
The stranger thing, I find, is that somewhere on this site kit is lurking seeing what people are saying about him, then cutting and pasting it on his newsletter so that we'll read it over there. Regardless of the quality of his cattle or program, that's a little weird.
The stranger thing, I find, is that somewhere on this site kit is lurking seeing what people are saying about him, then cutting and pasting it on his newsletter so that we'll read it over there. Regardless of the quality of his cattle or program, that's a little weird.
Oldtimer":1siayi5l said:
I'm not quite sure what you're saying and I'd actually really like to understand the difference between Ohlde and Pharo. If you look back in the pedigrees there's a lot of Ohlde in Pharo. Where did they separate?
quackingduck
Active member
angus9259":21r1tuon said:
It does seem there is a lot of defensiveness when PCC discussions are brought up.
Oldtimer
Well-known member
angus9259":1wyz5ofc said:
I guess what I'm trying to say is the Pharo cattle always look 1/2 starved to me-- like they've always been on a really tough 100 acre to raise a cow pasture-- when I know that most of the Ohlde genetics (some of which Kit uses) when put on decent pasture can perform... Apparently a big enviromental difference from where Kit has the cattle raised- and where I've seen Ohlde cattle raised...Its too bad the Diamond D sale is not being broadcast tomorrow- because that is a herd heavy in the same type of breeding- and the bulls look nothing like those sold in Kits sale....
To be fair to Kit- I have never seen how his bulls do after they get out on good strong grass-- but I have the Ohlde and Diamond D bulls/cattle...Altho I've been told that just like those bulls the Pharo cattle do very good when they get on good groceries...
Julian
Well-known member
If you want OCC genetics go to OCC.
If you want Pharo genetics go to Pharo.
If you want XYZ genetics go to XYZ.
If you want Pharo genetics go to Pharo.
If you want XYZ genetics go to XYZ.
Oldtimer you have it about right. In looking through the pedigrees of our Pharo bred females they are nearly all at least 3/4 Ohlde bloodlines with the other 1/4 being Wye and a lot of that coming through the Double Diamond bull, Banjo.
The Double Diamond bulls developed on forage would look a lot different due to the grass around Valier, Montana versus eastern Colorado. Other old timers always said the central northern Montana grass was the same as other place's grass plus oats.
Our Pharo bred females are EXTREMELY easy keepers as just yesterday we joked about their waddling over to a fresh pasture.
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
Oh absolutely---where Pharo promotes little, to no input cattle- that thrive on producibility thru higher numbers of lower weight animals that can be raised rather than production ability of the individual animals-- Ohldes-- and other operations like Diamond D (and several others) have worked on productibility of the cattle to produce well on lower input- be it because of enviroment or whatever-- These are cattle that have been bred to do well on a low input environment- but will also excell when the enviroment gives them a good situation....[/quote]I'm not quite sure what you're saying and I'd actually really like to understand the difference between Ohlde and Pharo. If you look back in the pedigrees there's a lot of Ohlde in Pharo. Where did they separate?[/quote]
I guess what I'm trying to say is the Pharo cattle always look 1/2 starved to me-- like they've always been on a really tough 100 acre to raise a cow pasture-- when I know that most of the Ohlde genetics (some of which Kit uses) when put on decent pasture can perform... Apparently a big enviromental difference from where Kit has the cattle raised- and where I've seen Ohlde cattle raised...Its too bad the Diamond D sale is not being broadcast tomorrow- because that is a herd heavy in the same type of breeding- and the bulls look nothing like those sold in Kits sale....
To be fair to Kit- I have never seen how his bulls do after they get out on good strong grass-- but I have the Ohlde and Diamond D bulls/cattle...Altho I've been told that just like those bulls the Pharo cattle do very good when they get on good groceries...[/quote]....... think it was N.R. said awhile back if starting over he'd go look at cattle that where ran harder than he doe's
I guess what I'm trying to say is the Pharo cattle always look 1/2 starved to me-- like they've always been on a really tough 100 acre to raise a cow pasture-- when I know that most of the Ohlde genetics (some of which Kit uses) when put on decent pasture can perform... Apparently a big enviromental difference from where Kit has the cattle raised- and where I've seen Ohlde cattle raised...Its too bad the Diamond D sale is not being broadcast tomorrow- because that is a herd heavy in the same type of breeding- and the bulls look nothing like those sold in Kits sale....
To be fair to Kit- I have never seen how his bulls do after they get out on good strong grass-- but I have the Ohlde and Diamond D bulls/cattle...Altho I've been told that just like those bulls the Pharo cattle do very good when they get on good groceries...[/quote]....... think it was N.R. said awhile back if starting over he'd go look at cattle that where ran harder than he doe's
Exactly the reason we went to Pharos. After many years of experience and wrecks with cattle raised in better conditions than ours we learned our lesson. IMHO there is no place tougher than eastern Colorado when you factor in all of the variables of drought ever few years, unusually late blizzards killing many cattle, etc. These are all input costs though they may not be hay etc. In the mountains you get picked away at every year with the hay costs but you don't have to liquidate or have a fantastic blizzard death loss that probably costs at least as much as the yearly hay.
