Opinions on this bull
- Thread starter kiku_fs
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TR
Well-known member
I kept looking at this bull trying to figure out how to tactfully ask the question, "What happened to my rump roast, my prime rib, my ribeye?" without offending. I mean, those who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones, right? :lol: I'm by no means a great judge of confirmation, but when looking at a beef animal, if my first impression is that they make me want to eat a steak, then I'll look further into the rest of their confirmation in bits and pieces, weigh their EPD's in there, look at their bloodlines, progeny, ADG, etc. Daybreak's yearling bull is a great example of this. He makes me want a steak, so from there, I would explore him in more detail.
So, add that in with the comments that have been made on the board regarding the bull being 50% of your herd, using a bull that will improve your females faults as opposed to meeting or detracting from them for replacements, etc, I'm not sure I see why this guy is being used and not on the hook already. No matter if we're seedstock producers, terminal producers, etc, most all cattle will end up on the plate at sometime or another, right? And if that's the case, then why wouldn't we be using bulls that will put more on the plate than just hamburger......again, "Where did my rump roast go?"
Then I went over to another thread on the board about muscling=thickness=REA, and found a very appropriate quote of DOC HARRIS's that probably explains what to look for when purchasing a seedstock bull better than I ever could.
So, add that in with the comments that have been made on the board regarding the bull being 50% of your herd, using a bull that will improve your females faults as opposed to meeting or detracting from them for replacements, etc, I'm not sure I see why this guy is being used and not on the hook already. No matter if we're seedstock producers, terminal producers, etc, most all cattle will end up on the plate at sometime or another, right? And if that's the case, then why wouldn't we be using bulls that will put more on the plate than just hamburger......again, "Where did my rump roast go?"
Then I went over to another thread on the board about muscling=thickness=REA, and found a very appropriate quote of DOC HARRIS's that probably explains what to look for when purchasing a seedstock bull better than I ever could.
DOC HARRIS":39etmbcl said:
BC
Well-known member
I won't romp on your bull - you have heard enough of that. What I will suggest to you is to go ahead and sell him. Take the money and add some to it. Go look for a new bull. Look for one that exhibits some muscularity. When viewing from the rear, you want the bull to be thickest (widest) through the center of his stifle. Also look to se if their is some bulge on the inside of his rear leg. Another indication of muscling is to look at the forearm. You must alays select an animal that is structurally sound. Make sure testicular size is adequate.
kiku_fs":3gafctgl said:
I suspect that you hit the nail on the head. He has very good growth EPDs so he should not have the butt of a Jersey heifer. Do you have a picture of him a year ago??? I suspect that he was on a heavy grains program. You'all saw him with over an inch of fat cover and all muscled up; then took him to the house and turned him out and the flesh has just peeled off of him. Those young bulls get so randy out there with a bunch of cows that unless they are on lush forage or are being supplemented they run themselves silly and don't get enough to eat and a bovine is a ruminant. He depends on the millions of microbial bugs in his gut to digest his food for him. Animals on heavy grain grow different bugs from heavy forage bugs so if you switch from one diet to the other without an adjustment factor you can mess up an animal nutritionally. The only part of him that has grown this winter has been bone (and not much of that). Like I said in the Tarentaise bull string, you need to find an extra field or an acre where you can build a heavy duty pen and put these boy bulls in there for the 270 days they are not working and supplement them with UNLIMITED hay and a DAILY grain ration. Even BETTER would be to find somebody with a forage based bull development program and buy two year old bulls from them. LET somebody else develop bulls for you. You and your dad are in the commercial cow/calf business and if you don't watch out, bull management is going to bite you in the butt. We are in the best calf market any of us has ever seen or are likely to ever see again. There is no sense in not getting ALL your cows bred due to young bulls, bull nutrition, or anything else. I would still get rid of him though. It would take a lot of feed to finish growing him out, he is probably already stunted, there is probably something else wrong with him too, and his problems STILL could be mostly genetic.
kiku_fs":7whh2atg said:
I agree completely; but managing bulls in a forage program is much more difficult than in a grain program. I like your web site and I like all the green grass I see there. My grandfather ran an all forage program with the bulls running with the cows ALL year long too; but he only bought forage reared two year old bulls so never had the problem of bull shrinkage. Of course cow type and size was much different then so the cattle were much easier keeping than anything we have today. In a natural environment of wild cows, one year old bulls would not be breeding anything because their big mature 5 year old sires would be running them off so they had 2-3 years of growing before they "were allowed" to do any work. You turn a 10-13 month old bull out with a herd of cows and he is not going to get enough nutrition to grow up, breed the cows, and settle the cows. Some dude who feeds his bulls 8-14 pounds of grain a day CAN run a 13 month old bull as his featured herd sire; though even there you usually have to pull that boy bull out to recover after a 60 day breeding season. You'all can't keep buying bull calves (particularly grain fattened ones) and turn them loose to run with your cows year round with NO supplement or there is going to be a breeding disaster at some point.
alacattleman
Well-known member
to me this bull looks like a over grown bottle calf . say he has the genetics in him too raise great calves. did they leave with his a$$? on account of poor nutrition. or will they reappear once he play's catch up becauce i have seen top breeder lose a cow and have a oraphan too bottle raise they are never at their peak unless you throw alot of money at um. im not saying they should keep this animal but this sht is always in the back of my head when judging animals from a apperance standpoint ;-)
VanC
Well-known member
Brandonm2":38thmexu said:
IMHO this is excellent advice. If I were in your situation, I would do my best to follow it.
VanC
Well-known member
kiku_fs":1sn9t1vk said:
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a grass-based system. Lot's of people do it and make it work. I'm just saying that if that's the way you do it, then you should buy bulls that have been raised the same way. That way they will be less likely to go down hill when you put them in with your cows.
VanC":3ctfwjrk said:
Probably should remember to let that grass-raised bull finish growing to 2 to 3 years before putting with cows. I think the problem arises when putting an immature bull to work. This runs them down and he probably will never recover.
This post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Some forages WILL NOT adequately provide the nutrition that some growing animals need.
You might THINK you are in the cattle business but if you are raising them in a forage only environment you are actually in the forage business. Treat it as such or give them feed.
AM I the only one here who can't understand WHY Kiku STILL does not understand that her bulls need food for maintenance, food for growth, and food for work??? I am not a feed salesman. I don't care whether those groceries come from Grade 2 yellow corn and soybean meal, ryegrass, oats and clover, crop stubble, or stockpiled fescue as long as they eat enough to get their job done, grows, and doesn't melt away.
Brandonm2":394p4dba said:
No Brandon, you're not the only one. Some are in the mindset that they will not feed a cow, bull, or calf grain. Period. I hear it every day from bull customers wondering why their cows don't get bred just like Kiku was wondering if it was the Charolais cows' fault.
Some people don't have any business with cows and it don't take long to find them.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
She posted a pic of her Tarentaise yearling bull, and now this "older" Angus bull wanting to know what we think. I THINK she and her dad do not have an eye for cattle and can't SEE that they are starving. It doesn't make any difference if they are wanting to be a grass beef producer. If the grass is STARVING the cattle, than you must do something different. Cows not cycling for 4-5 months usually is because they are lacking nutrition - STARVING.
Someone mentioned her cows looked thin - she said THEY ARE NOT THIN - hmmmm, like I said, maybe she needs to learn what thin looks like and what HEALTHY looks like.
It is soooo hard for each of us to be critical of OUR OWN cattle. We look at them and admire them.
But, you lack of "eye" is hurting your "business".
I would sell both bulls, and buy a MATURE grass fed bull. And hope you have enough grass & hay to get the cows cycling for him to breed them.
Someone mentioned her cows looked thin - she said THEY ARE NOT THIN - hmmmm, like I said, maybe she needs to learn what thin looks like and what HEALTHY looks like.
It is soooo hard for each of us to be critical of OUR OWN cattle. We look at them and admire them.
But, you lack of "eye" is hurting your "business".
I would sell both bulls, and buy a MATURE grass fed bull. And hope you have enough grass & hay to get the cows cycling for him to breed them.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
This post has been beaten to death ad nauseum, therefore this is my last comment concerning it. Kiku comes across in a manner that an "Air Head" college Freshman girl I knew once did. The subject matter was "......being "Fair" to ALL animals, and her take on it was . . ."THEY have as much right to live as YOU do!" She was a vegetarian - and I am not sure if her brain was affected by that habit or not! Kiku sounds just like that - - - person - - -when she says "...it's just not right..." to feed cattle grain!
DON'T GET ME STARTED!
DOC HARRIS
KMacGinley
Well-known member
kiku_fs":15188cdd said:
In other words, he lost all he had under your grassfed management. I think that your herd nutrition program may need a little help. I know feeding grain is against your religion, but cows coming in heat 5 months after calving is a pretty big sign that something is not going right there with your program. The bull has nothing to do with when your cow finally works up enough energy to cycle. That sounds like a classic milk production is falling to the point that there is finally enough energy available to her to come in heat. I would guess that you do not have enough available high quality forage to do the job. So, sell some cows or feed some grain. It is cheap. A lot cheaper than buying some more pasture. ;-)
What she needs to do is sell her bulls and cows and hfrs and get out of the cattle business altogether. Some people just shouldn't have any cattle or other livestock at all.Jeanne - Simme Valley":qm4zmru4 said:
