OCC Sires ?

[Stocker Steve]

Do you have any experience to share on OCC bulls?

Homer, Moderator, Xtra Easy, Paxton, Prototype caught my eye as potential cow makers.

 

[Post Oak]

My bull is a son of Prototype and the heifer calves that I have got off of him this year look better than the bull calves.

 

[Lucky_P]

Prototype is a carrier of DM1 - the double-muscling gene.
I keep flirting with using him anyway... it's not behind anything else in my herd.

Lots to like about Homer and Paxton...but -18 and -14 Docility scores, respectively, make them non-starters here...

 

[Post Oak]

My bull has great docility. He is not a pet,nor do I try to pet him. Every other black or Angus bull that I have had has been a snorter and a pawer , or became one eventually. I am in the process of building my herd back up the next few years and I am trying to do it with high $EN Ohlde bulls. This summers calves are the first ones that I have had by the Prototype son. The heifer calves are nice for 4 to 5 month old summer calves. The heifers are stocky,blocky, and pretty tame. The bull calves leave much to be desired(except for one), but I bought the bull for heifers, not for terminal purposes and growth.

 

[cow pollinater]

I have a bunch of emblazon grand daughters. I had two sons floating around for a while and I wish I still had them. Both bulls were a little snorty but the daughters are quiet and they really perform well in my country. I am trying to track down one emblazon daughter to AI back to something similar(maybe plainsman or a beckton bred red angus) but it's not going well so she may get bull bred this year.
My neighbor/cousin has been using OCC genetics for years including the amerifax influenced bulls. In recent years they went with just the angus as the amerifax bulls were a little milky for here. He doesn't pay any attention to docility scores but there is not a wild cow on the place. In fact his bull pasture is about a hundred yards from my office window and an almost daily routine for me is to walk over and lean on the fence and watch his bulls lay there and ignore me. They do a lot of work on foot and have never had a problem unless there were pairs with young calves in the mix.

 

[Lucky_P]

CP,
Used Gardens Wave early on - before he had a Doc epd. Knew the potential was there - his sire, Highmark was at -17, and had a caution in the ABS catalog, to protect daughters for temperament; when Wave's initial numbers came out, he was at -23!. Had no issues with any of the Wave calves, and have 3 daughters in the herd now, that are as docile as anything else.
So...Docility epds probably have to be taken with a grain of salt... but I'm getting too old to be 'looking for trouble' ...

 

[Oldtimer]

I have an O C C Prestige 672P daughter and a couple of granddaughters ... Also have a couple of O C C Magnitude 805M daughters and several granddaughters as I also used a Magnitude son for a couple of years... I've had no disposition problems with any of them- except one- a heifer out of a Prestige daughter sired by the Magnitude son this year was flighty... She was also a month late in calving- so she went to the Golden Arches a week ago... The rest are quiet and the only way they would run you over (bull included) would be in their desire to be first to get a handout of cake... ;-)
The heifers so far have made some nice broody smaller framed easy keeping cows that produce nice calves...

 

[Jake]

The majority of our herd goes back to 6807 in one fashion or another. Either through Emblazon or Dateline.

I would go with Paxton or Prototype over the others little more grow to them.

You will give up a lot using Homer or Moderator. Females will look good about the time they get 4 years old.

 

[Oldtimer]

The majority of our herd goes back to 6807 in one fashion or another. Either through Emblazon or Dateline.

I would go with Paxton or Prototype over the others little more grow to them.

You will give up a lot using Homer or Moderator. Females will look good about the time they get 4 years old.

I never thought of 6807 as an Ohlde bull- but when you think about it even tho he was bred and raised by Dale Davis he was co-owned and used extensively by Tim and one of the foundations of the Ohlde breeding... Just like some of the Cedar Hills cows (Dixie Erica of C H 1019) raised by John Hamilton play heavily in the foundation of the O C C herd..,
We have kept a heavy sampling of Dale Davis breeding thru Rito 707 and 6807 progeny as well as old Cedar Hills bloodlines in our herd... Much of the C H genetics comes thru the Cole Creek cattle we bought a few years back which have a heavy Juanada influence (which again goes back to Dale Davis genetics)..

Why start over trying to build the wheel when folks like these have already done a great job with many years of genetic building? These bloodlines seem to nick well with most genetics you combine them and give you a good foundation to take whatever way you want in your breeding plan...

 

[Jake]

The majority of our herd goes back to 6807 in one fashion or another. Either through Emblazon or Dateline.

I would go with Paxton or Prototype over the others little more grow to them.

You will give up a lot using Homer or Moderator. Females will look good about the time they get 4 years old.

I never thought of 6807 as an Ohlde bull- but when you think about it even tho he was bred and raised by Dale Davis he was co-owned and used extensively by Tim and one of the foundations of the Ohlde breeding... Just like some of the Cedar Hills cows (Dixie Erica of C H 1019) raised by John Hamilton play heavily in the foundation of the O C C herd..,
We have kept a heavy sampling of Dale Davis breeding thru Rito 707 and 6807 progeny as well as old Cedar Hills bloodlines in our herd... Much of the C H genetics comes thru the Cole Creek cattle we bought a few years back which have a heavy Juanada influence (which again goes back to Dale Davis genetics)..

Why start over trying to build the wheel when folks like these have already done a great job with many years of genetic building? These bloodlines seem to nick well with most genetics you combine them and give you a good foundation to take whatever way you want in your breeding plan...

I am looking to pick up a Rito bred bull or two this year to complement all of our Traveler genetics.

I may have changed my source for the genetics but the type and kind is pretty similar.

 

[Stocker Steve]

CP, So...Docility epds probably have to be taken with a grain of salt... but I'm getting too old to be 'looking for trouble' ...

Is docility low for heritability ?

 

[Lucky_P]

AAA & NALF report apparent heritability of about .37 - whatever that means.

http://www.angus.org/Nce/Documents/ByTh ... cility.pdf

 

[Stocker Steve]

Used Gardens Wave early on - before he had a Doc epd. Knew the potential was there - his sire, Highmark was at -17, and had a caution in the ABS catalog, to protect daughters for temperament; when Wave's initial numbers came out, he was at -23!. Had no issues with any of the Wave calves, and have 3 daughters in the herd now, that are as docile as anything else.

How good are the daughters ?
Would you use him or Next Wave as a cow maker ?

 

[Lucky_P]

Steve,
Only got 3 daughters out of the 15 or so units of Wave that we used. They're here and currently raising their 3rd calves; I like 'em. At 4.5 frame, Wave has the potential to downsize 'em - but nothing like what I experienced with NBPT D806; they pretty much followed dam size, but are still a bit smaller than their dams. Two in the Fall group have SH-sired heifers that look like probable keepers.

Used 2 straws of Next Wave (all that CV/ASS had on hand last time I ordered) on two first-calf 928 daughters; calved this spring and those calves got blown away by all the others in that group - but all the others were by high-WW Shorthorn & Simmental sires, out of mature cows...so, not not really a fair comparison...but the Next Wave heifer didn't make the cut up against the SH & SM sired heifers in her contemporary group. Had a great disposition, and would potentially make someone a good cow if she doesn't end up as feeder heifer; almost kept her just because of disposition and what was behind her, but I'm at the point now that if a heifer stays, a cow has to go...

 

[Stocker Steve]

Steve,
Used 2 straws of Next Wave (all that CV/ASS had on hand last time I ordered) on two first-calf 928 daughters; calved this spring and those calves got blown away by all the others in that group - but all the others were by high-WW Shorthorn & Simmental sires, out of mature cows...so, not not really a fair comparison...but the Next Wave heifer didn't make the cut up against the SH & SM sired heifers in her contemporary group. Had a great disposition, and would potentially make someone a good cow if she doesn't end up as feeder heifer; almost kept her just because of disposition and what was behind her, but I'm at the point now that if a heifer stays, a cow has to go...

Got a similar situation here. One herd is mostly straight angus and most of the calves are dinky compared to the other Balancer sired herd. Both are rotated thru improved pastures so forage is not limiting.

But... if you retain the big growthy (SH & SM) cross heifers - - what level of inputs do will your new cows need ?

 

[cow pollinater]

Is docility low for heritability ?

That.37 that lucky_p gave you is accurate. But what you have to remember is that genetics don't always average. You could breed a -14 bull to a +14 cow and get a calf that ranges anywhere in between the two. The more times you add the desireable trait in the more reliably you can expect to see it expressed. So for example, if you use one generation of -14 doc genetics you may not see much of a difference as it's 30% heritable and not all of the ones that express the poor trait will be as bad as the sire. However, if you go back on those with another -14 you're going to have around a 65% chance of having a few problems and some of them will likely be a true -14.
Also, keep in mind that the more extreme a trait is the more you will see it expressed regardless of heritability. For example, if you dump a frame six char bull in with a bunch of frame three cows, you WILL see an increase in frame in those calves. Stature is 40% heritable but the difference between sire and dam is so great that you can't get away from having some averaging.

 

[Lucky_P]

And, if you put a frame-4 bull on frame 6 cows...you may get a bunch of 4-frame cows. D806 sure did that here...

I dunno, Steve. I bred with an eye on $EN for several years; used bulls as high on the positive side as I could get. Not sure it matters in our management system - MIG with daily moves from mid-Feb to mid-Oct; limit fed grass hay for 2 hrs + 4-5# DDG/cow(regardless of size)/day during the winter feeding period. Did seem like most of the high $EN sires we used...produced less growthy calves, and heifers that looked like crap until they got to be 5-6 years old.
So...I've followed the farm manager(wife)'s model - she's all about mashing the scale at weaning; doesn't care if it takes more feed...and, at least for the last few years, prices have been so good that it's been worthwhile to spend more on winter feed.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I dunno, Steve. I bred with an eye on $EN for several years; used bulls as high on the positive side as I could get. Not sure it matters in our management system - MIG with daily moves from mid-Feb to mid-Oct; limit fed grass hay for 2 hrs + 4-5# DDG/cow(regardless of size)/day during the winter feeding period. Did seem like most of the high $EN sires we used...produced less growthy calves, and heifers that looked like crap until they got to be 5-6 years old.

I have very very few open cows. I sometimes have heifers get too fat. My pastures may be over improved for cows because I previously ran a 100% stocker operation...

I believe a + $EN can benefit replacements, but it is not the optimum choice for all situations. What do you consider "high $EN" ?

 

[Lucky_P]

Steve,
If everything else is good, I'd like to have $EN above +$10.00.
Have used a couple of Angus bulls with $EN above +$40.00

 

[Stocker Steve]

Ever have any replacements from the OCC Mitchell bull ?