new one on me.....

[grubbie]

We had a cow start prolapsing a couple months before calving. Never saw one do it that early. Sewed her up. Once she got close, we cut out the stitch and she prolapsed right away. Took her to the vet and he "pinned" her. Never saw that before either. She laid around very uncomfortable for a couple weeks, then calved. The calf was very weak and cold, we brought him in and warmed him up, this was our main concern as he was barely alive. So, he got no colostrum the first 6 hours. We put him back on momma at about the 20 hour mark, had to put her in the chute and hold him up, put the teat in his mouth, but he sucked on his own. He got stronger over the next few days, then got pneumonia (or similar). Resflor didn't help much. Draxxin did the trick. Momma quit eating and drinking, she had draxxin, banamine, we kept her going for a couple weeks, ended up putting her out of her misery. My question is about the calf. It's head was tilted, figured because of the pneumonia. But it stayed that way. Looks like he had a stroke, one whole side of his face is droopy. Ear, eye (half shut also), nose (one nostril half shut), half of the mouth,....but he eats well, gains weight, and will play and buck. Im thinking he is a bit deformed from the way momma laid for so long. But I'm guessing. As long as I have worked with cattle, I have not had much experience with pneumonia. Could this condition be residual? Attached is a picture but it doesn't show it very well.

 

[NC Liz 2]

Sounds to me like momma attempted to abort the calf for some unknown reason, causing her to prolapse and the calf was left with his head in the pelvic opening until he was finally born.
What is momma's history?

 

[grubbie]

Sounds to me like momma attempted to abort the calf for some unknown reason, causing her to prolapse and the calf was left with his head in the pelvic opening until he was finally born.
What is momma's history?

9 year old red baldy, never had a problem. Raised her as a calf from one of our cows and she calved on her own as a heifer.

 

[NC Liz 2]

OK.

As I see it momma came under stress early in her pregnancy and developed a compromised immune system which triggered her to attempt to abort.
When the calf was finally born, he was born with a compromised immune system, in addition to his deformity.
Only you can figure out what caused her sever stress, as I would only be guessing.
The cases I have seen like this have been form malnutrition or toxic poisoning or other unknown.

You might want to research why cows abort.

 

[NC Liz 2]

Do you use a vaccination program?

IBR and BVD complexes
Infectious bovine rhinotracheitis (IBR) and bovine virus
diarrhea (BVD) complexes are virus-caused diseases
responsible for many abortions and possibly respiratory
infections, "pinkeye"-type lesions and foot lesions.
Temporary infertility may follow IBR because of vaginitis
and/or a mild uterine infection.
Because these diseases are so complex, be careful when
using IBR and BVD vaccines. Some vaccines may result in
abortions. Before vaccinating, consult a veterinarian

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

 

[grubbie]

Interesting perspective....Thanks. Hard to say what happened there, our cows have a lot of grass most years on their winter pasture, and they get FAT (maybe part of the problem). This year was no different. They get mineral tubs all winter. While im not convinced that nutrition would have been the problem. I won't rule it out. It was one cow, one year, this one time. So for that reason I am less worried about the cow and what happened, than I am the calf, which is still alive. Thanks for the reply!
As for the other message I received;
I know that I already have more invested in the calf than it is obviously worth. While I am in this to make a profit, as a cattleman my number one priority is the care and welfare of the animal. It may not always be financially prudent, but as a cattleman and a Christian, I am responsible for this living, breathing animal. I will do my best to do just that, even though I am well aware the cost of a .22 bullet.

 

[NC Liz 2]

Re:

They get mineral tubs all winter.

That may be your answer right there. Toxic poisoning.
Re:

a .22 bullet

I agree, as the calf may now be a carrier of what ever killed momma, plus it will never be worth anything even if it lives. But that is up to you.

 

[branguscowgirl]

It sounds to me like a damaged nerve, for whatever reason. Compression in the birth canal ect. Not "disease and not dietary."
Sometimes nerves will rejuvenate and get better, sometimes not. It could also be like a "Bells palsey" common in humans following illness. (Also affecting the nerves on that side of the face.) If it was "disease or dietary", movement would be affected. Not just facial droop.
I believe "strokes" are rare in most animals. The first thing a "stroke" would affect is the ability to swallow. It does not sound like that is a problem.
Just give it time and maybe anti inflammatory.

 

[Taurus]

Re:

They get mineral tubs all winter.

That may be your answer right there. Toxic poisoning.
Re:

a .22 bullet

I agree, as the calf may now be a carrier of what ever killed momma, plus it will never be worth anything even if it lives. But that is up to you.

excuse me for being a meanie...but what give you a right to make that comment? You don't deserve to give any advice to anybody and you have no idea what you are talking blah blah blah about 99% of time. At least a live calf is worth than a dead calf.

 

[grubbie]

Thanks, "stroke" was just a description of how he looks. No swelling really, just deformed. Compression makes the most sense to me, was just wondering if anyone else had run into this before. He sucks a bottle with vigor and head butting, already munching on manna. A little worried about lung damage from that pneumonia and having recurring resp problems.
As for Taurus, it's ok, I asked for opinions, NC Liz gave hers. All good.

 

[branguscowgirl]

I did some research, and "bells palsey" is considered very common in animals, with all the symptoms that your calf is exhibiting. As I said, the most common cause is from a residual infection, possibly to the inner ear, or cranial nerve inflammation. The treatment would be treating for infection and antiinflamatories to decrease nerve irritation.
Good luck, and be sure to let us know how he does! He's a cutie!

 

[NC Liz 2]

Re: .22 bullet

what give you a right to make that comment?

The same right that gives anyone else permission to make a comment otherwise.

At least a live calf is worth than a dead calf.

Not by my mission statement.
" My goal is and always has been, to treat all my animals humanely, to uphold or improve the image of the beef industry, while at the same time maximizing my profit in a safe manner. [/quote]
IMO,
To let that calf live is inhumane, as was the treatment of the momma.
To let that calf live does nothing " to uphold or improve the image of the beef industry " and as a matter of fact, it detracts from the cattle industry image.
To let that calf live can only cost you money and reduce your profit, instead of maximizing profit.
That calf has 3 strikes and should have it's lights turned out.

And that is a cattleman's responsibility that he took on when he got into the cattle business, regardless if it was for profit or not. It goes with the job, as does weaning and other forms of culling.
So if he can't live up to his responsibility he need to get out of the cattle business.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Liz, you are wrong! He has the obligation (and right) to take care of that calf as long as it has the will to live. You should not be telling anyone what to do with their animals. :bang:

 

[Nesikep]

NC Liz, Making rash decisions does not further any of your goals.

The calf does not seem to be in any sort of distress... Running, bucking nursing and playing... I think at this point it's inhumane to kill it, for NOTHING. The mother was put down, after they saw she wasn't going to get better and was in distress.

Letting the calf live does nothing "to uphold or improve the image of the beef industry".. Well, I guess it depends on your view for that one.. I can certainly see compassion for an animal that isn't perfect, the bottom line isn't the be-all and end-all.

The point he's at now is where he could start to make money...


The pneumonia he got could happen to any cold calf that didn't get colostrum for a long time. That doesn't mean he has a compromised immune system

While we can't rule out IBR, BVD or any other disease at this point, I'd consider them fairly unlikely unless you see others. If you have the vet out, perhaps you can have him do a test on him?

We can't even say with any certainty the cow aborted, or tried to. Toxic plants could be a cause (pine needles are well known), but I would really doubt it on the mineral tubs

All I can pray for is I never end up in hospital with NC Liz as a head doctor!

 

[branguscowgirl]

Liz...are you Dr. Jack Kevorkian by any chance? Your advice seems to always be to put the animal down.

:lol: Kevorkian of the animal kingdom! :lol: It is his mission to kill anything imperfect! Or conduct unscientific experiments on them. Now that "is inhumane."

 

[cmf1]

Grubbie,
If you don't get on the boards much I'll bring you up to date.
NC Liz is also Sir Loin, Medicine woman,and a few other names here.
His diagnosis generally consists of, bovine polio and needs to be put down, or, just needs to be put down.
He has no cattle and posts pics from the internet and vacation roadside photos.
He is HSUS or PETA and means no good for cattlemen.
FWIW.

 

[NC Liz 2]

Branguscowgirl.


Re:

You are wrong! He has the obligation (and right) to take care of that calf as long as it has the will to live.

And that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, as I am entitled to mine.
As he calls himself a cattleman, he also has the obligation to do what is best for the cattle industry.

You should not be telling anyone what to do with their animals.

And you too are wrong!
You really do need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
What I stated was " IMO", I did NOT tell him what to do! As a matter of fact, re 22 bullet, I even said: "But that is up to you."
I would hardly call that telling someone what to do.

If this calf lives a full life, where do you see it's end as a bull? As a steer?
Can you guarantee it will be indistinguishable from all other steer or as a bull, not pass on any genetic defect or disease within the industry?
I think not!
And again, that is MY OPINION, which makes neither you nor I right or wrong!

 

[Nesikep]

I would say it will probably be freezer beef, probably for home use. It will probably be a steer, so it won't pass on any genetic defects it may or may not have, and won't pass on any diseases it may or may not have, because it wouldn't have gotten them from nowhere, and wouldn't be going anywhere either.

I think using this guy as personal freezer beef would be the best use of him... you get some good meat and avoid a serious dock at the sale barn.

Part of treating animals humanely is treating them when they're sick!

 

[branguscowgirl]

Branguscowgirl.


Re:

You are wrong! He has the obligation (and right) to take care of that calf as long as it has the will to live.

And that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, as I am entitled to mine.
As he calls himself a cattleman, he also has the obligation to do what is best for the cattle industry.

You should not be telling anyone what to do with their animals.

And you too are wrong!
You really do need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
What I stated was " IMO", I did NOT tell him what to do! As a matter of fact, re 22 bullet, I even said: "But that is up to you."
I would hardly call that telling someone what to do.

If this calf lives a full life, where do you see it's end as a bull? As a steer?
Can you guarantee it will be indistinguishable from all other steer or as a bull, not pass on any genetic defect or disease within the industry?
I think not!
And again, that is MY OPINION, which makes neither you nor I right or wrong!

Sorry Liz, your crap isn't even worth my response. :tiphat: (And please don't interprete that to mean that I don't have one for you, just not worth my breath.)

 

[NC Liz 2]

Nesi,

Re:

Making rash decisions does not further any of your goals.

They are not "rash decisions" they are sound business practices ( goals ) that are used in all successful businesses.

The calf does not seem to be in any sort of distress...

We don't know that.
He could be a carrier of venereal disease or B-cell leukemia/lymphoma ( cancer) which 38% of small beef herds are infected with and show no symptoms.

Now here's my point.
When you don't know the cause and only know the symptoms it becomes a judgment call as to what to do. If we knew the cause of the symptoms ( prolapse and mamma having to be put down ) my opinion might be different.
As I see it, no cause has been, nor can it be, determined. Therefore I will always er on the side of my goals.

As I got no answer to my question " Do you use a vaccination program? "I strongly suspect he does not ans this calf is a carrier of IBR and BVD complexes.

With that in mind:
This is not a bull I would want to see ending up being sold as a herd bull.
And this is not a steer I would want to see going through a sale barn and end up being rejected at the slaughterhouse.
nor would I want to use him as freezer beef for my personal use, or sell him as beef to anyone.
And IMO, that only leaves one other option. Dispatch him.

{quote] Letting the calf live does nothing "to uphold or improve the image of the beef industry"..[/quote]
I totally disagree!

The pneumonia he got could happen to any cold calf that didn't get colostrum for a long time. That doesn't mean he has a compromised immune system

True, but momma had to be put down for basically the same symptoms and it sure sounds like the nut didn't fall far from the tree.

If you have the vet out, perhaps you can have him do a test on him?

That is what should have happened when momma first prolapsed, if not sooner, to try to determine why she had prolapsed.

We can't even say with any certainty the cow aborted, or tried to.

True, but the evidence does indicate it.

Toxic plants could be a cause (pine needles are well known), but I would really doubt it on the mineral tubs

True, but the symptoms do not rule out PEM.

All I can pray for is I never end up in hospital with NC Liz as a head doctor!

You could be so lucky!
FYI: We are talking about animals, not humans and the cattle industry is not a freak en petting zoo.
So if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen!
You would be better advised to worry about the meat you eat then me being your doctor.