New bull???

[Warren Allison]

I figure it's the same issue ppl have said with black Hereford. They tend to "watered down". Neighbor has a pair of Herefords that are really nice, their proven and I've seen his nice calves. Thinking about renting one next spring, which he's offered. I'd run him along with my existing simangus.

Just guessing here... but possibly because it's PART ANGUS?

Travkr, you are right. All the new "black" breeds are part Angus. Because black color is dominant, the new breeds can be955 the original breed, but it is the Angus that put the value in the animal. I find it very amusing at the people with "black Gelbiev" and "black Limosine" and "black SImmental", that try to bash the black Hereford. Black Herefors id a 30 yr old breed. Get over it, al lof you Karnes. It is 5/8ths Hereford and 3/8ths Angus. LIke a Brangis is 5/8tyhhs Angus and 3/8ths Brah. And Brafords,m and Gerts, etc. Now you can breed a registered black hereford to a reg red Hereford, and if the calf is black, it can be registered BH. If it is red, it can not be reg Hereford. But the black one can, and it will be 13/16ths Hereford. You can breed that way again...breed this one to reg red Hereford, and if the calf is black, it can be reg Black Hereford. This calf will be 29/32nds Hereford. o it again, and you get 61/64ths, or 95% Hereford. Again, and it is 06 and 2/3rds percent Hereford. Every bit as much Hereford as a Black Simmental is a Simmental.

 

[Travlr]

Travkr, you are right. All the new "black" breeds are part Angus. Because black color is dominant, the new breeds can be955 the original breed, but it is the Angus that put the value in the animal. I find it very amusing at the people with "black Gelbiev" and "black Limosine" and "black SImmental", that try to bash the black Hereford. Black Herefors id a 30 yr old breed. Get over it, al lof you Karnes. It is 5/8ths Hereford and 3/8ths Angus. LIke a Brangis is 5/8tyhhs Angus and 3/8ths Brah. And Brafords,m and Gerts, etc. Now you can breed a registered black hereford to a reg red Hereford, and if the calf is black, it can be registered BH. If it is red, it can not be reg Hereford. But the black one can, and it will be 13/16ths Hereford. You can breed that way again...breed this one to reg red Hereford, and if the calf is black, it can be reg Black Hereford. This calf will be 29/32nds Hereford. o it again, and you get 61/64ths, or 95% Hereford. Again, and it is 06 and 2/3rds percent Hereford. Every bit as much Hereford as a Black Simmental is a Simmental.

Agree with everything you say except, "... it is the Angus that put the value in the animal."

The value in any beef animal is in the finished hanging carcass and what inputs it took to put it on the rail, and not in the breed or the color.

 

[simme]

There is a difference between the black herefords and the black simmentals, gelbviehs, limousin, etc. The simmentals and others are registered within the main breed association. Black simmentals are registered along with the red ones and the spotted ones. All colors part of one breed association with one set of goals and rules and one set of epd's and data. So, a bigger dataset for accuracy of information. More animals and members and money to promote the breed. The original Hereford association now has all the records of the horned and polled red/white face herefords, but not the black ones. The black hereford association is an independent newer association. So fewer members and less animals and data - at least so far.

 

[Warren Allison]

There is a difference between the black herefords and the black simmentals, gelbviehs, limousin, etc. The simmentals and others are registered within the main breed association. Black simmentals are registered along with the red ones and the spotted ones. All colors part of one breed association with one set of goals and rules and one set of epd's and data. So, a bigger dataset for accuracy of information. More animals and members and money to promote the breed. The original Hereford association now has all the records of the horned and polled red/white face herefords, but not the black ones. The black hereford association is an independent newer association. So fewer members and less animals and data - at least so far.

True. Each association is different. Here ford, Shorthorn, and Angus associtions did not register Brafords, Gerts, or Brangus, so they made their own breed association. WHere as Charbrays are registered in the Charolais Association. Just as horned and polled Hereford associations finally merged, so too will the Hereford and Black Hereford associations enetually. Having one association to pay dues to like the Simmental, or 2 to pay dues to like Hereford and Black Hereford, does not make the animals any better or worse. There isn;t a registered Hereford in the world that can;t be bred to a Black Herford. And every reg. Hereford in the world..the best of the best.. and every reg Angus in the world, including the best of the best, went into the creation of the black Hereford. So for people to say they are inferior to red Herefords is ludicrous. They are at the least, as good, but due to the Angus infusion, they are in fact superior to the red Hereford.

As I said, so ludicrous of the Simm, Limi, Gelbievmetc., breeders to dis the BHs. Also, most everyone agrees that the best British cross of all time is the black baldy. Hereford x Angus. The average commerical farmer/rancher will have black cows or bulls,that they call Angus, that are heterozygous, and occassionally the crossing results in a "red baldy".. People also use their "black" Simms,. Lims etc, to cross on Herefords, and when the "black: ones are heterozygous, they end up with red baldies as well. And, people like to raise black baldy heifers for replacements, and when these are bred to heterozygous for black bulls, they can birth a red calf. The reason the founders created the blackHereford, is to that commercial farmers would have a Hereford that would birth a black baldy every time.

 

[Warren Allison]

Agree with everything you say except, "... it is the Angus that put the value in the animal."

The value in any beef animal is in the finished hanging carcass and what inputs it took to put it on the rail, and not in the breed or the color.

The values as in the potential to get the CAB certification, and thus the CAB premium for the animals from the buyers.

 

[Travlr]

The values as in the potential to get the CAB certification, and thus the CAB premium for the animals from the buyers.

The difference between true value and manipulated, perceived value.

 

[Ky hills]

All in all, there probably ain't no difference in the breed percentage of black Simmentals etc. and "black Herefords".
The difference is that the continental breed associations pretty much all had breeding up programs in place.
Hereford and Angus associations are both closed herd books, and therefore do not recognize percentage cattle.
"Black Herefords" are a "breed" creation of a few individuals and their association is not affiliated with the AHA. Very limited seed stock, however from what I understand the movement is making some noise. Remains to be seen if those trying the bulls will continue to long term, and if there will be a steady market for the females. Both scenarios are vital for a breed.

 

[Nick Wagner]

Were any of those calves retained as replacements? How did they do for CE?

I don't remember for sure, but I doubt any were kept. I was pretty upset and lectured grandpa, severely as I recall.

A few years before, dad and his brother experimented, bred five Hereford cows to some new, exotic breed. Maine Anjou. Got to watch the vet bring a calf out in pieces, twice. Broke something in the one cow, doctored her for over a month, she never got up on her own. It was my job to hoist her up twice a day, the blockheads didn't learn from it. Boy, these trips down memory lane sure makes me miss them…..

 

[Travlr]

I don't remember for sure, but I doubt any were kept. I was pretty upset and lectured grandpa, severely as I recall.

A few years before, dad and his brother experimented, bred five Hereford cows to some new, exotic breed. Maine Anjou. Got to watch the vet bring a calf out in pieces, twice. Broke something in the one cow, doctored her for over a month, she never got up on her own. It was my job to hoist her up twice a day, the blockheads didn't learn from it. Boy, these trips down memory lane sure makes me miss them…..

My dad liked to experiment too, so was a great example to me of what NOT to do. He ruined a lot of really exceptional heifers.

But even though I inherited his interest in experimenting, I also learned to be careful and do it on older cows, not first calf heifers.

I had a lot of fun playing around with Belgian Blues in the 80's.

 

[Nick Wagner]

My dad liked to experiment too, so was a great example to me of what NOT to do. He ruined a lot of really exceptional heifers.

But even though I inherited his interest in experimenting, I also learned to be careful and do it on older cows, not first calf heifers.

I had a lot of fun playing around with Belgian Blues in the 80's.

I bought a group of cows about twenty years ago. One of them had a 115-120 pound calf every year, on her own. Herd average of 85-90.

 

[Warren Allison]

The difference between true value and manipulated, perceived value.

Ummm no. Pretty sure that the last price bid, that the auctioneer says "sold" on, is true and not perceived, Travlr.

 

[Travlr]

Ummm no. Pretty sure that the last price bid, that the auctioneer says "sold" on, is true and not perceived, Travlr.

Well I'd put any of my cattle, regardless of breed or color, up against your angus... on the rail without their hides... and challenge you to distinguish a difference in value.

The sale barn value is manipulated.

I'm surprised some smart lawyer hasn't figured out a way to make a class action suit out of it.

 

[Warren Allison]

All in all, there probably ain't no difference in the breed percentage of black Simmentals etc. and "black Herefords".
The difference is that the continental breed associations pretty much all had breeding up programs in place.
Hereford and Angus associations are both closed herd books, and therefore do not recognize percentage cattle.
"Black Herefords" are a "breed" creation of a few individuals and their association is not affiliated with the AHA. Very limited seed stock, however from what I understand the movement is making some noise. Remains to be seen if those trying the bulls will continue to long term, and if there will be a steady market for the females. Both scenarios are vital for a breed.

Actually, the continental breeds that have breed up programs with one registry, have pretty much turned their breed into crossbreds. I admire Hereford for not registering BHS, Brafords, etc. and AAA for not registering Brangus, Chi-angus etc. Chianina is a continental breed that has not been contaminated or diluted by "breeding up"... introducing other breeds. Thet keep the Chi-Angus books, but it is a different registry. I think what happened to simmental is the worst tragecy. There was aboslutley no point in turning them part-bred Angus black. If you take a pb Fleckvieh..the closest you can get to the original simmental that came here, and brred it to a pb Angus, the resulting calf will have a lot more high bread vinegar, and be a much better calf, than crosssing a Black SImm with a Black Simm. And THAT was the original intent of the CAB..to encourage breeders of other breeds to cross with pb black Angus, This not only created more market for angus cows and bulls, but would have increased the market for the breeds that produced the best calves

 

[Ky hills]

Actually, the continental breeds that have breed up programs with one registry, have pretty much turned their breed into crossbreds. I admire Hereford for not registering BHS, Brafords, etc. and AAA for not registering Brangus, Chi-angus etc. Chianina is a continental breed that has not been contaminated or diluted by "breeding up"... introducing other breeds. Thet keep the Chi-Angus books, but it is a different registry. I think what happened to simmental is the worst tragecy. There was aboslutley no point in turning them part-bred Angus black. If you take a pb Fleckvieh..the closest you can get to the original simmental that came here, and brred it to a pb Angus, the resulting calf will have a lot more high bread vinegar, and be a much better calf, than crosssing a Black SImm with a Black Simm. And THAT was the original intent of the CAB..to encourage breeders of other breeds to cross with pb black Angus, This not only created more market for angus cows and bulls, but would have increased the market for the breeds that produced the best calves

I get what you are saying, but the timing of the black Angus rejuvenation was a perfect storm, to which CAB benefited from and caused the unlikely scenario of other breeds to trend towards breeding for black hides almost exclusively. CAB accomplished it's goals of regaining market share for Angus bulls. Over time though it seems like the tide is turning at least a bit with many folks turning to black Simmentals, Limousins, etc for bulls instead of Angus. Unfortunately, those other breeds have been diluted and changed even though individuals may be purebred or high percentage of their respective breeds. Lots of good longtime breeding programs were forced out of business or to change because of loss of market share and dock of the non black cattle.
I know very well as my self and others that had registered Charolais, watched as almost overnight demand went from good, to less than average stockyard prices for bulls and females alike.

 

[Davemk]

True. Each association is different. Here ford, Shorthorn, and Angus associtions did not register Brafords, Gerts, or Brangus, so they made their own breed association. WHere as Charbrays are registered in the Charolais Association. Just as horned and polled Hereford associations finally merged, so too will the Hereford and Black Hereford associations enetually. Having one association to pay dues to like the Simmental, or 2 to pay dues to like Hereford and Black Hereford, does not make the animals any better or worse. There isn;t a registered Hereford in the world that can;t be bred to a Black Herford. And every reg. Hereford in the world..the best of the best.. and every reg Angus in the world, including the best of the best, went into the creation of the black Hereford. So for people to say they are inferior to red Herefords is ludicrous. They are at the least, as good, but due to the Angus infusion, they are in fact superior to the red Hereford.

As I said, so ludicrous of the Simm, Limi, Gelbievmetc., breeders to dis the BHs. Also, most everyone agrees that the best British cross of all time is the black baldy. Hereford x Angus. The average commerical farmer/rancher will have black cows or bulls,that they call Angus, that are heterozygous, and occassionally the crossing results in a "red baldy".. People also use their "black" Simms,. Lims etc, to cross on Herefords, and when the "black: ones are heterozygous, they end up with red baldies as well. And, people like to raise black baldy heifers for replacements, and when these are bred to heterozygous for black bulls, they can birth a red calf. The reason the founders created the blackHereford, is to that commercial farmers would have a Hereford that would birth a black baldy every time.

The Hereford assoc will never allow black Herefords after what happened in the 70's and 80's.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Well, Warren - you can breed to Pie Rouge, Montbeliarde, Abondance or Pezzata Rosa - all recognized as Fullblood Simmental - not just the Fleckvieh. You also almost could have used Gelbvieh, but the founders of ASA decided to reject that breed because of disposition. Did you know that?
Or, you can just use a Fullblood Simmental grown here in USA. American Simmental Association keeps the registry for PB, % and Fullbloods. Our Fullbloods are registered as "Fullblood" - never upgraded - only genetics that go back to imported bloodlines. But, in the beginning the "imported Fullbloods" had some of their papers pulled, because they were upgraded over in Europe. They changed the rules to read the imported Fullbloods had to go back 5 generations, before ASA would stamp them Fullbloods.
I would put my lowly PUREBREDS against any Hereford x Angus cross calf.
And, I would put any one of my bulls used for a crossbreeding program for performance against any PB Angus or PB Hereford sired calf. Not saying mine are "superior", just definitely confident they would give any of them more than a run for their money.
There is "enough" Simmental genetics in the PB cattle to achieve great hybrid vigor crossing with a PB British breed.
As I said before, yes there are % Simmentals running around - LOTS of them because they are a great performing animal.
You are familiar with Fleckvieh because that was the Fullbloods that closely fit the need of the Simmental breeders in US. They were not overly heavy fronted. Not overly spotted. A good deep red with much easier calving than the original Simmental bull semen that arrived in US.

 

[Warren Allison]

I get what you are saying, but the timing of the black Angus rejuvenation was a perfect storm, to which CAB benefited from and caused the unlikely scenario of other breeds to trend towards breeding for black hides almost exclusively. CAB accomplished it's goals of regaining market share for Angus bulls. Over time though it seems like the tide is turning at least a bit with many folks turning to black Simmentals, Limousins, etc for bulls instead of Angus. Unfortunately, those other breeds have been diluted and changed even though individuals may be purebred or high percentage of their respective breeds. Lots of good longtime breeding programs were forced out of business or to change because of loss of market share and dock of the non black cattle.
I know very well as my self and others that had registered Charolais, watched as almost overnight demand went from good, to less than average stockyard prices for bulls and females alike.

Actually, it was Angus breeders first, then all cattle producers that raised black babies from their off-colored cows or who used other bulls on their black cows, that benefitted. As was the intent of the CAB marketing program. The dilution of other breeds by trying to turn them black, was due to pure ignorance of genetics by hose breeders. The dumbasses could have bred their original colored Simm/Lim/Gel to registered Angus bulls, and had black calves to market that very year, instead of spending decades to turn their breeds homozygous black. You are right about good longtime breeding programs being forced forced out of business. What should have happened was for breeders to market THEIR breed as the best breed to cross with Angus to get the biggest, fastest-growing, highest scoring CAB eligible calves, and select for and breed for the bulls and cows to do that. The black was gonna happen with the Continental breeds, except Charlolais , with the pb cross to homozygous BA bulls. I could think of all kinds of advertising slogans for original red & white Simmental, Hereford, Limosine, etc., to make their breeding stock as valuable and as sought after as the pb Angus crosses they have turned into today.

 

[Warren Allison]

All in all, there probably ain't no difference in the breed percentage of black Simmentals etc. and "black Herefords".
The difference is that the continental breed associations pretty much all had breeding up programs in place.
Hereford and Angus associations are both closed herd books, and therefore do not recognize percentage cattle.
"Black Herefords" are a "breed" creation of a few individuals and their association is not affiliated with the AHA. Very limited seed stock, however from what I understand the movement is making some noise. Remains to be seen if those trying the bulls will continue to long term, and if there will be a steady market for the females. Both scenarios are vital for a breed.

I believe they will, and people who were die-hard Simme breeders probably had the same thoughts about " those damned, bastardizde black cows and bulls they are trying to pass off as Simmental". But, you can buy BH bulls and semen, homozygous for black, that are 96.67% Hereford, and with any bloodline you can find in red Herefords. The guy I went to see about the bulls for use with the 150 Braford and f1 Her x Brahma cow herd I Put togther, has an operation with I think 200, might have been 150, pb Brangus and pb Brahmas, that he custom=produces f1 heifers with. He had bred 50 of his Brahmas to some homo for black and homo for polled Black Herefords, by AI usssing sexed semen. His client had contracted to buy 35. He ended up with 42 heifers and 8 bull calves, every one of them absolutely beautiful black & white F1s. They are all sold at weaning for $250 more than he gets for his red & whites and $400 more than he gets for his tiger stripes. Each year, whatever of his Brahmas he hasn't bred to something for a custom replacement, he breeds to Brahmas to keep his brahma herd going. This year he has to breed some to a Chianina and some to a Chi-Angus...heifers pre-sold... and the rest he is going to breed black Hereford. That's where I got the Chi/Brah and Chi-ang/Brah heifers I posted about yesterday. I got them before the crap with my health started, or I would have not put them, down there in the Kudzu pasture. I imagine they got bred by the Corr bull. When I go next weekend to get things ready for the dove shoot, I might bring them back or sell just sell them.

It just occurred to me that I might send him those pics of the Brh x Jereseys Caustic posted, and see if he might want to find some sexed Jeresy semen to use.

 

[simme]

Everyone has an opinion. For the evolution of the simmental breed in the US, I tend to think that those who actually owned and produced simmental over the last 50 years are in a better position to know and understand what happened. If you are producing a product for profit, you need to produce for a market. If you are big enough to define and control your market, you have it made. Otherwise, efficiency, fertility, productivity, health, etc all affect the kind of animals you should produce. Over time, you will tend to select for those traits. I can't (and don't) see many people still having a herd of those original European continental cows regardless of breed. Not because they are dumb, ignorant, or stupid. Not because they want to pretend their cattle are angus. But because they want cattle that perform better for them. I remember those Char bulls in the 60's and early 70's that produced giant calves that killed the cows here in the US. Bulls from European genetics where so many had huge birth weights that they were delivered by C-section in their native land. I remember those simmental cows with huge udders and huge bone and muscle since in their native land, they were bred for milking, oxen and beef. It is not dumb to select for better traits for our market here. One could wonder then why the continental cattle were ever brought here. In the 60's and early 70's, those angus, hereford and shorthorn beef calves here did not have much growth. A 400# weaning weight then was a very good calf. Those continental cattle came here for growth, but carried other traits that were not always the best fit. That growth made the hereford and angus breeders a little worried. There were some battles at the historic stock shows and sales to get the simmentals into those. I believe it was the Denver National Western that would not allow the simmentals access for a sale of breeding stock. The simmental breeders rented a ballroom in a hotel and had their sale there. Cattle brought to the ballroom in the freight elevator from the basement. Record sale prices for beef cattle in that sale - well beyond the angus and hereford prices. Just a little history of the breed.
Breeders are not forced out of business. In any business, you have to produce a product that there is a market for. The market and the demand are critical to the success of a business. If you are going to crossbreed with 2 particular breeds, it seems to me that you would want the cows to be the breed that is the lower input and lower cost to keep of the 2 breeds - given the ratio of cows to bull.
I can remember when black simmental bulls became popular. The supply was limited at first, so the quality did not always match those red simmy bulls. Took years to reach that. Seems like there is now a growing market for the reds. Maybe the same issue now in reverse in finding red simmy bulls that check all the boxes for quality compared to the black ones. Color can be a personal preference, and environmental issue, or a market issue. Regardless, I don't think any breeds are trying to be angus - black or red. Most likely just responding to their market or what works for them.
I admit to being dumb, but thought that was in my head. Now i read that it is in my other end as well.

 

[Ky hills]

I believe they will, and people who were die-hard Simme breeders probably had the same thoughts about " those damned, bastardizde black cows and bulls they are trying to pass off as Simmental". But, you can buy BH bulls and semen, homozygous for black, that are 96.67% Hereford, and with any bloodline you can find in red Herefords. The guy I went to see about the bulls for use with the 150 Braford and f1 Her x Brahma cow herd I Put togther, has an operation with I think 200, might have been 150, pb Brangus and pb Brahmas, that he custom=produces f1 heifers with. He had bred 50 of his Brahmas to some homo for black and homo for polled Black Herefords, by AI usssing sexed semen. His client had contracted to buy 35. He ended up with 42 heifers and 8 bull calves, every one of them absolutely beautiful black & white F1s. They are all sold at weaning for $250 more than he gets for his red & whites and $400 more than he gets for his tiger stripes. Each year, whatever of his Brahmas he hasn't bred to something for a custom replacement, he breeds to Brahmas to keep his brahma herd going. This year he has to breed some to a Chianina and some to a Chi-Angus...heifers pre-sold... and the rest he is going to breed black Hereford. That's where I got the Chi/Brah and Chi-ang/Brah heifers I posted about yesterday. I got them before the crap with my health started, or I would have not put them, down there in the Kudzu pasture. I imagine they got bred by the Corr bull. When I go next weekend to get things ready for the dove shoot, I might bring them back or sell just sell them.

It just occurred to me that I might send him those pics of the Brh x Jereseys Caustic posted, and see if he might want to find some sexed Jeresy semen to use.

Warren, take care of your health and don't over do it.
Different breeds had and have different situations. The Simmental breed in the US had black cattle in its registry before the CAB stuff due to their breeding up, other breeds did breeding up too, people used the cows they had and bred to Simmental or what ever other continental bull. Hereford and Angus have closed herd books which don't allow for other breeds being introduced, it's a whole nother story but most folks acknowledge that some outside genetics somehow found their way in to both breeds.
The statement that you can find the same Hereford genetics in the "Black Herefords" and that they are 96.67% Hereford, yet they sell for $250 more than nearly genetically identical red ones just proves how ridiculous the CAB black hided nonsense is.
Thank you for pointing that out it puts it in perspective perfectly.