New bull???

Help Support CattleToday:

fnfarms1

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
236
Reaction score
52
So I’ve been using SimAngus bulls for last 5yrs. They are 3/4brothers. Same sire out of full sister cows. I’ve had no issues out of them. Since I’ve had them, it’s been 70-80% bull calf crop which might be luck but I honestly think it’s something with these bulls. Vet tested them this year and suggested trading the older bull(6yr old) due to him testing good but not as good as younger bull(5yr old). Said to use him this year without worry but he thinks with age he’s going to be less reliable. So I’m looking for a new one. Like most areas black sells well here. To much ear doesn’t help. My dad was a charolois fan and I used charolois for couple years. Have to admit I do like my charolois bulls, just went black for the better $.

Here in NE Oklahoma it’s hot right now, next 10days temps are 100-104. With our humidity the index is likely 110-120. These black bulls and cows are having bit of a rough time. Which is making me think of going to a charolois bull. Neighbor and I had discussed going halves on a black Hereford. He calves in fall, me in spring so neither of us need a bull year round.

I know there’s going be lots of opinions. I plan to only replace the older SimAngus so it’s cheaper, hopefully still get a lot of bull calves, and I feel better with a proven bull. So I’m looking for opinions on the Black Hereford because I have no experience on them. Guy I buy my SimAngus from says the blk Herefords aren’t consistent enough, but I figure he’s also trying to sell his bulls. Ppl I buy charolois from say the blk Herefords ‘have no meat’, I’m taking as thickness. Seems odd since generally red Herefords seem real thick. I run 35-40cows,SimAngus and charolois based commercial cows, depending the year
 

Travlr

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
642
Reaction score
796
So I’ve been using SimAngus bulls for last 5yrs. They are 3/4brothers. Same sire out of full sister cows. I’ve had no issues out of them. Since I’ve had them, it’s been 70-80% bull calf crop which might be luck but I honestly think it’s something with these bulls. Vet tested them this year and suggested trading the older bull(6yr old) due to him testing good but not as good as younger bull(5yr old). Said to use him this year without worry but he thinks with age he’s going to be less reliable. So I’m looking for a new one. Like most areas black sells well here. To much ear doesn’t help. My dad was a charolois fan and I used charolois for couple years. Have to admit I do like my charolois bulls, just went black for the better $.

Here in NE Oklahoma it’s hot right now, next 10days temps are 100-104. With our humidity the index is likely 110-120. These black bulls and cows are having bit of a rough time. Which is making me think of going to a charolois bull. Neighbor and I had discussed going halves on a black Hereford. He calves in fall, me in spring so neither of us need a bull year round.

I know there’s going be lots of opinions. I plan to only replace the older SimAngus so it’s cheaper, hopefully still get a lot of bull calves, and I feel better with a proven bull. So I’m looking for opinions on the Black Hereford because I have no experience on them. Guy I buy my SimAngus from says the blk Herefords aren’t consistent enough, but I figure he’s also trying to sell his bulls. Ppl I buy charolois from say the blk Herefords ‘have no meat’, I’m taking as thickness. Seems odd since generally red Herefords seem real thick. I run 35-40cows,SimAngus and charolois based commercial cows, depending the year
Do you feed any supplements before turning the bulls out with your cows? High protein and mineral can affect sperm survivability and motility in a male gender specific way.

As to black Hereford? Individuals vary. Buy one with a conformation that will add something to your herd. If you like muscle, buy a muscled up bull. Is the bull tested for homozygous black? It's really just a Hereford/Angus cross to get a black hide, like so many black cattle nowadays. Personally I like Limos, and they come in black too.
 

MurraysMutts

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2019
Messages
4,715
Reaction score
5,824
Location
N. Central boonies, Oklahoma
Sounds like the guy you bought your sim-angus bulls from is worth buying another one from!

I don't know why you'd want to change if your happy with what you've been producing. You got good service from your bull seller I think.

But to each his own....


O yeah. I'm running an original hereford bull and I'm satisfied with him. I guess if he was black it would be OK too
 

Son of Butch

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
8,790
Reaction score
2,916
Location
Frost Bite Falls, Minnesota
I’ve been using SimAngus bulls for last 5yrs. They are 3/4 brothers. Vet tested and suggested to use him this year without worry, But he thinks with age he’s going to be less reliable. So I’m looking for a new one. Like most areas black sells well here. Too much ear doesn’t help. My dad was a charolois fan and I used charolois for couple years. Have to admit I do like my charolois bulls, just went black for the better $.
Here in NE Oklahoma it’s hot right now, next 10 days temps are 100-104. With our humidity the index is likely 110-120. These black bulls and cows are having bit of a rough time. Which is making me think of going to a charolois bull. Neighbor and I had discussed going halves on a black Hereford. He calves in fall, me in spring so neither of us need a bull year round.

I plan to only replace the older SimAngus so it’s cheaper, So I’m looking for opinions on the Black Hereford because I have no experience on them. Guy I buy my SimAngus from says the blk Herefords aren’t consistent enough, but I figure he’s also trying to sell his bulls. Ppl I buy charolois from say the blk Herefords ‘have no meat’, I run 35-40cows,SimAngus and charolois based commercial cows, depending the year
Black Hereford talk about a one trick pony, the whole premise is built on breeding for color, white faced black cattle (imitation black baldies) to take advantage of those who's priority is color first.

Nothing wrong with going SimAngus, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
BUT I'd go with a Charolais bull. It would give you a year or two of side by side comparison, to decide if you want to keep going with SimAngus.
Nothing wrong with trying to improve what you're doing with a Charolais to compare results and decide your future direction from there.
BUT imo Black Hereford would be a Hail Mary long shot as to improvement over either Charolais or SimAngus.
just my 2 cents
 
Last edited:
OP
F

fnfarms1

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
236
Reaction score
52
Do you feed any supplements before turning the bulls out with your cows? High protein and mineral can affect sperm survivability and motility in a male gender specific way.

As to black Hereford? Individuals vary. Buy one with a conformation that will add something to your herd. If you like muscle, buy a muscled up bull. Is the bull tested for homozygous black? It's really just a Hereford/Angus cross to get a black hide, like so many black cattle nowadays. Personally I like Limos, and they come in black too.
I can’t knock my SimAngus, really can’t think of a fault with them other than they sometimes fight through fence with neighbor bulls but that’s just life with bulls. Charolois I owned in the past also can’t say anything bad on, I just kept several heifers when I traded him out. As for supplements, the last 2yrs now I’ve gone with ConceptAid and COOL minerals, both Vitaferm products. My breed back has really improved, so I’ve buy the bullet and paid the higher price for pricey mineral. But the higher bull calf %started when I got these bulls.
 

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
1,041
Reaction score
680
Location
Georgia
I find it amusing, the criticism of Blackl Herefords that I see on these forums. And a lot of it comes from breeders of SimmAngus, black Simmental, black Limosin, black Gelbiev, etc. You know, breeds that are now exactly the same... just part bred Angus crosses. 0 years ago when the developers of the Black Hereforsd started their breeding program, they selected THE BEST Hereford cattle and the best Angus cattle they could find, The same hereford blood you find in the top red Herefords, and the top black angus. so, BH;s are equal, if not superior to, the best red Herefords you can buy. The BH is a 5/8 Hereford, 3/8 Angus composite breed, with its own breed registry. No different than Brangus, Braford, Santa Gertrudios, etc. The traditional black baldies... Angus X Hereford cross... are no more Black Hereford than a 1/2 Angus, 1/2 Brahma is a Brangus. A homo Black herford can be bred to a registered red Hereford, and the hetreozygous black calf can be registered BH. and THAT 13/16hs BH can be bred to a red Hereford, and THAT calf be registered GH as long as it is black. That one will be 91% Herefrod. No difference than the percenatge Simmental you find in "black Simmentals", or percentage Limosin in black Lims., etc.
 

Son of Butch

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
8,790
Reaction score
2,916
Location
Frost Bite Falls, Minnesota
I find it amusing, the criticism of Black Herefords....
they selected THE BEST Hereford cattle and the best Angus cattle they could find,
I admit I am unaware of their foundation bloodlines.
The Black hereford's founding fathers, so to speak.
Which Angus sires did they deem as the best of the best to mate to Herefords?
Who were the foundation Hereford sires?
 

chaded

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2018
Messages
622
Reaction score
794
Location
Southeast Ohio
I have only seen one black hereford and it was my neighbors. It was the first year we had this farm and I was letting a guy finish his lease for a year until I got my own cattle. The neighbors black hereford bull came over for a visit and bred 6 of the lease guys heifers that were Angus x Holstein crosses.

The bull was a very nice looking bull and all of his calves (neighbor and lease guys) looked identical and grew like weeds. I actually ended up with one of the lease guys heifers that was bred to the black hereford bull (crazy story!) and there weren’t many calves that sold for more than that steer that day.

If my neighbor ran that bull again he wouldn’t have to go through the fence to come over, I’d open the gate!
 

Travlr

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
642
Reaction score
796
I find it amusing, the criticism of Blackl Herefords that I see on these forums. And a lot of it comes from breeders of SimmAngus, black Simmental, black Limosin, black Gelbiev, etc. You know, breeds that are now exactly the same... just part bred Angus crosses. 0 years ago when the developers of the Black Hereforsd started their breeding program, they selected THE BEST Hereford cattle and the best Angus cattle they could find, The same hereford blood you find in the top red Herefords, and the top black angus. so, BH;s are equal, if not superior to, the best red Herefords you can buy. The BH is a 5/8 Hereford, 3/8 Angus composite breed, with its own breed registry. No different than Brangus, Braford, Santa Gertrudios, etc. The traditional black baldies... Angus X Hereford cross... are no more Black Hereford than a 1/2 Angus, 1/2 Brahma is a Brangus. A homo Black herford can be bred to a registered red Hereford, and the hetreozygous black calf can be registered BH. and THAT 13/16hs BH can be bred to a red Hereford, and THAT calf be registered GH as long as it is black. That one will be 91% Herefrod. No difference than the percenatge Simmental you find in "black Simmentals", or percentage Limosin in black Lims., etc.
Yeah... but this is exactly the problem with ALL of these crosses. "when the developers of the Black (crossbreeds) started their breeding program, they selected THE BEST (choose a breed) cattle and the best Angus cattle they could find..."

Which means that ALL of these crossbred cattle... bred ONLY because a black hide sells for more due to the bogus CBA marketing program and not to improve a breed... are related in a significantly interconnected gene pool.

And now people are using these related bulls as though they are herd improvement tools... when all they are is a way to get a black hide and less genetic diversity than they would get with a purebred bull.
 

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
1,041
Reaction score
680
Location
Georgia
I admit I am unaware of their foundation bloodlines.
The Black hereford's founding fathers, so to speak.
Which Angus sires did they deem as the best of the best to mate to Herefords?
Who were the foundation Hereford sires?
I;d go to the association website, and from there go to the breeder's websites. Those have more history of the breed in greater detail than the association page does. Don't remember thier names, but I found the websites of the 2 founding BH breeders when i was hunting some BHs for a client, and a lot of history is on their sites.
 

simme

Old Dumb Guy
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
2,754
Location
South Carolina
I am going to disagree with the comments that Simmentals were crossed with Angus ONLY to get the black color. How do you explain the considerable number of RED simangus that were the result of using Red Angus in the cross? Why would anyone use simmental and red angus if they were ONLY looking for a black color. Simmental came from Europe as very different type cattle than the improved version today. Marbling, birth weight, calving ease, efficiency, mature size, milk are some traits that might not have been ideal in the original. Generations of selection can change cattle for better or worse. Genetics from other breeds can do the same, maybe faster. Simmental has an open herd book with a breed-up program as well as percentage cattle registration. That sure allows faster improvement (or the opposite depending on selections) than just selection/evolution within a "pure" breed. Angus offered some characteristics that mixed well with the continental breeds. Color is just one trait. Otherwise, everyone would raise pure black angus if color were the only goal. Then there is the heterosis thing that the crosses have. It is important to produce cattle to meet the needs of the industry. The simmental and angus cross do that pretty well whether it is black angus or red angus.
 

Son of Butch

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
8,790
Reaction score
2,916
Location
Frost Bite Falls, Minnesota
Hays Converter is a black white faced breed, started in 1957 and recognized as a breed since 1975. I am very impressed with the reasoning and selection of the foundation animals and subsequent generations to develop a breed for the harsh conditions of Western Canada. They perform quite well in that environment. But flopped when used outside of Western Canada.

Hayes Converter met the inspection criteria to become a recognized breed.
Black Hereford is not a recognized breed.

Black Hereford corporation founded in 1994 by polled Hereford breeder John Gage.
Goal: To eliminate red baldie calves and produce strictly polled black baldies by using black angus bulls for heterosis.
1997 first animal registered to the corporation: BHJ Balder 7504 (bull)
angus and hereford parentage: unknown
1998 Gage's Black Hereford herd and corporation records sold to J&N Ranch Leavenworth, Kansas. J&N used Gage's black hereford bulls in their commercial herd for a few years before selling the commercial herd to focus on promoting, registry and marketing their Black Herefords around 2003.
J&N doing business as the American Black Hereford Association, has over 300 members and register an estimated 1500+ hd per year. To qualify for registration an animal needs to be a minimum of 62.5% Black hereford or hereford and black in color.
So they can be 37.5% of anything and still be a registered black hereford.
87.5% to be purebred Black Hereford.

I couldn't find any performance data for comparison with Charolais or SimAngus cattle. I bet Black Hereford would knock the socks off of Hays Converters when used in Kansas. But I'd put my money on both Charolais and SimAngus to beat both Black Herefords and Hays Converters in performance testing.

Black Hereford association motto: "Color you can count on."
Seems disingenuous to claim they used the best of the best of polled hereford and angus genetics, when they can't name a single angus or hereford sire used in the founding of "the breed."
 
Last edited:

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
1,041
Reaction score
680
Location
Georgia
Yeah... but this is exactly the problem with ALL of these crosses. "when the developers of the Black (crossbreeds) started their breeding program, they selected THE BEST (choose a breed) cattle and the best Angus cattle they could find..."
Oh, I am sure that developers of all of these improved new breed of Angus cross bred didn't use 6 figure bulls and cows....or their semen or embryos... but I fail to see the "problem" with anyone using the best of any breed they can afford.
Which means that ALL of these crossbred cattle... bred ONLY because a black hide sells for more due to the bogus CBA marketing program and not to improve a breed... are related in a significantly interconnected gene pool.
I guess you meant CAB? Certified Angus Beef? Nothing "bogus" about it, Have you never been to a super market?!! Or read the menu or other advertisement for the finest restaurants and steak houses?!! I assure you, the CAB program is genuine and highly successful. What is "bogus", is the idiots in other breeds trying to turn their cattle black by making them all part-Angus. What they should have done, is kept their red & white Simms pure, and their red Limos pure, etc,. and marketed their cows as the BEST cows to breed to angus bulls. Or their bulls as the best to breed to Angus cows. The CAB program would not have negatively impacted the off-color breeds at all, if idiots had just realized that crossing them with a pb Angus would give them black calves that qualified for CAB. Crossing an Angus with any breed will produce a better calf than a pure Angus OR a pure (fill in name of breed here) will.
 

Rmc

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 13, 2019
Messages
552
Reaction score
779
I find it amusing, the criticism of Blackl Herefords that I see on these forums. And a lot of it comes from breeders of SimmAngus, black Simmental, black Limosin, black Gelbiev, etc. You know, breeds that are now exactly the same... just part bred Angus crosses. 0 years ago when the developers of the Black Hereforsd started their breeding program, they selected THE BEST Hereford cattle and the best Angus cattle they could find,
If that is the BEST they could find o would suggest they change their selection protocol.
When a number of foundation animals have genetic defects not what I would call the BEST.
 

Son of Butch

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
8,790
Reaction score
2,916
Location
Frost Bite Falls, Minnesota
What they should have done, is kept their red & white Simms pure, and their red Limos pure, etc,. and marketed their cows as the BEST cows to breed to angus bulls. Or their bulls as the best to breed to Angus cows.
That is what would've been best for the integrity of the individual breeds.
But what was the most profitable for individual owners is what won out.
 
Last edited:

Travlr

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
642
Reaction score
796
What they should have done, is kept their red & white Simms pure, and their red Limos pure, etc,. and marketed their cows as the BEST cows to breed to angus bulls.
I'd agree with that... but short term thinking and a competitive industry have caused unintended consequences.
The CAB program would not have negatively impacted the off-color breeds at all, if idiots had just realized that crossing them with a pb Angus would give them black calves that qualified for CAB.
Thus creating an artificial financial incentive and impacting selection criteria negatively.
Crossing an Angus with any breed will produce a better calf than a pure Angus OR a pure (fill in name of breed here) will.
That's not necessarily true, although in general crossing any two breeds can be claimed to produce a "better" animal depending on what your criteria are.
 
Joined
Apr 13, 2022
Messages
19
Reaction score
41
Location
East Central Ohio
My understanding is that to have CAB you can have any breed of cow as long as it is black and grades prime or choice it will qualify. That is my problem with the whole thing. If it only needs to be black and grade right than they should leave the angus out of it or have to prove that it is 100% angus.
 

simme

Old Dumb Guy
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
2,754
Location
South Carolina
My understanding is that to have CAB you can have any breed of cow as long as it is black and grades prime or choice it will qualify. That is my problem with the whole thing. If it only needs to be black and grade right than they should leave the angus out of it or have to prove that it is 100% angus.
There is a little more to it than that. 10 points.

 

Rmc

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 13, 2019
Messages
552
Reaction score
779
Black Hereford association motto: "Color you can count on."
Seems disingenuous to claim they used the best of the best of polled hereford and angus genetics, when they can't name a single angus or hereford sire used in the founding of "the breed."
they can name those founding animals but choose not to.
Read the following article and you may find out why the don’t promote the founding sires of the breed
Law of averages says he couldn’t have been the only one having issues . He was just the only one to do anything about it.
Both the original herd bull he purchased as well as straws he bought to ai with both had genetic issues.
Once issue was discovered his entire herd was tested and over 50 percent where carriers. Law of averages says only 25 percent should be carriers.
“Breed” was relatively new at this time and had very small numbers. Why was the carrier rate double mathematical probability?
Makes me ask what percentage of the founding sires and dams where carriers. Since you had to inbreed at least once to foundation animals to achieve required 62.5 percent herford requirements?
 

Latest posts

Top