New bull???

Help Support CattleToday:

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
1,041
Reaction score
680
Location
Georgia
I agree about the Waygu marketing - that's what it is - marketing. Why does anyone need more than a High Choice or Prime piece of meat? You have to feed an animal that isn't carrying enough muscling to compare to a young beef animal.
I agree - CAB Program has been a marketing tool that is successful - but, all the beef industry did benefit. If nothing else, just the trickle-down pricing. I know "I" benefited when I sold my PB Simmentals on the rail. Got a premium every time.
I think, if we could get the numbers, the "other" mixed breeds or "other" PB breeds out number the Angus carcasses in the CAB because they have a hard time meeting the carcass requirements. I am trying to research that, but not finding what I'm looking for. I know I read it once. And, that may not be true "today".
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
12,965
Reaction score
2,411
Location
Central Upstate New York
Yup - those are the 10 Specifications. If you click on FAQ's
[H4]IS YOUR BEEF REALLY FROM ANGUS CATTLE?[/H4]
Angus cattle, which are known to produce higher quality beef, are typically black in color. This black hair trait is a strong indicator of Angus genetics, and has become the USDA standard by which cattle are considered for all Angus brands and products. Beef that qualifies for any Angus brand, including ours, is determined not by pedigree, but rather by traits, like hair color, that are highly associated with the Angus breed. For some brands, like the Certified Angus Beef ®​ brand, Angus heritage is just the starting point. In addition, we have 10 exacting quality standards, which ensure only consistently flavorful, tender and juicy beef earns our brand name.

Our Angus heritage is important to us because Angus farmers and ranchers actually own the Certified Angus Beef ®​ brand and created the vision for our high-quality beef more than 40 years ago. In fact, ours is the only brand owned by the American Angus Association®​. We encourage you to meet some Angus ranching families bringing high-quality beef to your table.
 

Ky hills

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
4,918
Reaction score
3,580
Location
Clark County, KY
Couple things on that CAB list of 10 that stands out.
#7, superior muscling; while it’s common to see muscled up bulls, it’s also pretty common to see light to only moderately muscled cattle too. I suspect the continental cross calves help out in this area to make up the difference.
#9, no dark cutters; that one should be obvious. I wonder what % of these modern Angus calves are dark cutters.
Disposition seems to me to be an issue within the breed.
The CAB product is a good product, not convinced that it is any more superior than any other similar grade cuts.
The ground beef is excellent and I will say that it’s texture is superior to other store bought ground beef, and very similar to our home fed beef. The CAB steaks and roasts are not as consistent as the ads lead you to believe. I’ve had good ones and the also the worst steak I’ve ever had was a CAB steak.
 

simme

Old Dumb Guy
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
2,754
Location
South Carolina
There is a Certified Hereford Beef program. Their website has a "where to buy" button. I added my zip code and selected a 50 mile range for retail locations. Got zero results. Changed to 100 miles and got 5 results. Changed to 500 miles and got 40 results. Wonder why? Appears that the Hereford program is not very popular. Must be a difference in the programs other than black vs red.
 

Travlr

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
642
Reaction score
796
Couple things on that CAB list of 10 that stands out.
#7, superior muscling; while it’s common to see muscled up bulls, it’s also pretty common to see light to only moderately muscled cattle too. I suspect the continental cross calves help out in this area to make up the difference.
#9, no dark cutters; that one should be obvious. I wonder what % of these modern Angus calves are dark cutters.
Disposition seems to me to be an issue within the breed.
The CAB product is a good product, not convinced that it is any more superior than any other similar grade cuts.
The ground beef is excellent and I will say that it’s texture is superior to other store bought ground beef, and very similar to our home fed beef. The CAB steaks and roasts are not as consistent as the ads lead you to believe. I’ve had good ones and the also the worst steak I’ve ever had was a CAB steak.
What you say about the CAB product being a good product is true...

But the CAB product is not even reliably any specific breed, much less angus. It's based on color at the sale barn... and carcass characteristics on the rail.

The whole thing is meant to sell homozygous black bulls more than it's meant to sell good beef or any other criteria. As far as the product itself, the only reason it is superior is because they select superior carcasses to slap a label on regardless of color.
 

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
1,041
Reaction score
680
Location
Georgia
What you say about the CAB product being a good product is true...

But the CAB product is not even reliably any specific breed, much less angus. It's based on color at the sale barn... and carcass characteristics on the rail.

The whole thing is meant to sell homozygous black bulls more than it's meant to sell good beef or any other criteria. As far as the product itself, the only reason it is superior is because they select superior carcasses to slap a label on regardless of color.
Actually, it is based on color at the slaughter facility. If it ain't black, it isn't even inspected for the other 10 qualifications. And, if the black carcasses fail one of the 10 tests, then it doesn;t get the CAB certification. I hardly doubt any inspector is going to risk losing his job by trying to pass off one as CAB when it isn't. Nor would the facility risk having their CAB cerification privilege pulled. No need in doing that any way... too many that are CAB qualified. And of course, the Angus breeders that put this together did so to create demand for black Angus bulls and cows. Just as most any other breed association promote their breed as being the best. AQHA spends millions in promoting the American QUater Horse as the best breed of horse to own. AAA was just more successful than other cattle associations. AAA;s vision was to promote Angus bulls as the best bulls to cross on your purebred Simmentals, for instance. Or black Angus cows to breed your Limosine or Gelbeiv bulls to. A top=quality purebred red & white Simmmental like we had in the 70's and 80's bred to a top Black Angus bull, would yield a far superior calf then one of these black Simms or simm Angus cows cows bred to the same kind of bull. A purebred red Limosine bul bred to angis cows,would yiod a far better quality calf then a "purebred" black Lim bull and cow would. Turning al these breeds into part-bred Angus, lost the hybrid vigor you would have gotten breeding purebrd angus to purebred ( insert name of another breed) Thank God, Pinzgauer association didn't come up with a CPB program, and market it as successfully. If they had of, all the Simmetals, Carlolais, Lims, Shorthorns, etc. would now all be red skunk backs! :)
 

Lee VanRoss

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
1,867
Reaction score
1,924
What you say about the CAB product being a good product is true...

But the CAB product is not even reliably any specific breed, much less angus. It's based on color at the sale barn... and carcass characteristics on the rail.

The whole thing is meant to sell homozygous black bulls more than it's meant to sell good beef or any other criteria. As far as the product itself, the only reason it is superior is because they select superior carcasses to slap a label on regardless of color.
I would describe that as 'Deflective Morality'. CAB has a valid claim because they own the bench but not from a moral high ground.
It would take but a small active group to push through legislation making it illegal to claim a type of meat tastes better because of the
color of hide on the animal. Those words when they become enacted into law will spell the end of CAB as we know it.
 

M.Magis

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
2,155
Reaction score
336
Location
Cambridge, Ohio
There is a Certified Hereford Beef program. Their website has a "where to buy" button. I added my zip code and selected a 50 mile range for retail locations. Got zero results. Changed to 100 miles and got 5 results. Changed to 500 miles and got 40 results. Wonder why? Appears that the Hereford program is not very popular. Must be a difference in the programs other than black vs red.
We have a local “chain” grocery store that has carried CHB for years. They cut their own and its always fresh. Frankly, its nothing special and certainly nowhere near CAB quality. I’ve had better steaks from Walmarts Choice shelf. I bought it for years trying to like it, I finally gave up.
 

Travlr

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
642
Reaction score
796
I would describe that as 'Deflective Morality'. CAB has a valid claim because they own the bench but not from a moral high ground.
It would take but a small active group to push through legislation making it illegal to claim a type of meat tastes better because of the
color of hide on the animal. Those words when they become enacted into law will spell the end of CAB as we know it.
I'd rather the CAB program promoters take a reality check and recognize how they are damaging the industry... and voluntarily pull their marketing campaign. They've had a good run but the unintended consequences are piling up. Of course a sudden enlightenment and a dose of conscience isn't likely to compete with their wallets.
 

Lee VanRoss

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
1,867
Reaction score
1,924
Reality checks never come from wishful thinking but from rude awakenings. Most would allow themselves to go broke in a group
than to succeed alone. The angus hierarchy in St Joseph has no intentions of giving up or sharing their hold on the market.
You have seen it on these pages for yourself so anything I add is just more head on the beer.
One of my biggest fears is that people will find out that black feathered chicken fingers are preferred by more airline passengers,
MAGA attendants and NFL teams
and here I will set with Fog Horn Leghorn and no hens.
Just think Travir if this thing works out a black chick could be worth as much as a heifer! Eat your heart out C A B!
 

Nick Wagner

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2016
Messages
156
Reaction score
180
Location
South side of Lake Erie
Reality checks never come from wishful thinking but from rude awakenings. Most would allow themselves to go broke in a group
than to succeed alone. The angus hierarchy in St Joseph has no intentions of giving up or sharing their hold on the market.
You have seen it on these pages for yourself so anything I add is just more head on the beer.
One of my biggest fears is that people will find out that black feathered chicken fingers are preferred by more airline passengers,
MAGA attendants and NFL teams
and here I will set with Fog Horn Leghorn and no hens.
Just think Travir if this thing works out a black chick could be worth as much as a heifer! Eat your heart out C A B!
A minor correction Lee. Certified Angus Beef has it’s headquarters at the north edge of Wooster, Ohio. They even have a culinary center where they train chefs how to prepare tasty and juicy beef cuts. My guess is this knowledge benefits everyone selling beef into the market. Eating shoe leather hardly makes one want another serving. As for the chicken thing, I’m a fan of fried chicken, try to eat it at least once per year.
 

Silver

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
4,219
Reaction score
3,269
Location
BC Peace River country
CAB is a grade of beef, not a breed. I doubt it is a better eating experience than US ‘prime’, but it should be similar based on its requirements to qualify. I think it’s unfortunate that people think they are getting something superior to Prime when buying CAB but as we know it is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled.
 

Lee VanRoss

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
1,867
Reaction score
1,924
A minor correction Lee. Certified Angus Beef has it’s headquarters at the north edge of Wooster, Ohio. They even have a culinary center where they train chefs how to prepare tasty and juicy beef cuts. My guess is this knowledge benefits everyone selling beef into the market. Eating shoe leather hardly makes one want another serving. As for the chicken thing, I’m a fan of fried chicken, try to eat it at least once per year.
So C A B is in Wooster and A A A is in St, Jo? So which is the pot? and which is the kettle? I never figured you spent much time in the air,
played football or attended MAGA rally's so chicken once a year will work. ( I'm the same way with beer...)
Also referring to another product as shoe leather hardly adds veracity to one's position albeit string pulling is this case.
Beef, It's what's for dinner!
 

Ky hills

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
4,918
Reaction score
3,580
Location
Clark County, KY
So C A B is in Wooster and A A A is in St, Jo? So which is the pot? and which is the kettle? I never figured you spent much time in the air,
played football or attended MAGA rally's so chicken once a year will work. ( I'm the same way with beer...)
Also referring to another product as shoe leather hardly adds veracity to one's position albeit string pulling is this case.
Beef, It's what's for dinner!
Yeah, I’ve heard that shoe leather song and dance before, not surprisingly always from Angus folks. It’s part of their propaganda lines.
 

Nick Wagner

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2016
Messages
156
Reaction score
180
Location
South side of Lake Erie
Yeah, I’ve heard that shoe leather song and dance before, not surprisingly always from Angus folks. It’s part of their propaganda lines.
Little harsh Kentucky. I seldom knock any breed, they all have their weak points, and I’ve seen my share. Dad loved his Herefords, and I lost count how many prolapsed uteruses I stuffed back in as a kid. Never saw one in an Angus. But feed them side by side, they look the same under the hide. Grandpa used to tell about the shorthorns, and how they brought two cents less per pound when you sent one to market. That’s where Herefords were at when I struck out on my own, Angus are simply worth more. Yes, it is all marketing. Just like John Deere, CaseIH, Ford, Chevy, the list is endless, do. I still don’t see how that hurts beef in general. Thinking on it, I’ve heard Armour hot dogs are the dogs kids love to bite. But I wish I were an Oscar Meyer wiener.
 

sstterry

CT Supporter
CT Supporter
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
5,934
Reaction score
2,893
Location
Bulls Gap, TN
There is a Certified Hereford Beef program. Their website has a "where to buy" button. I added my zip code and selected a 50 mile range for retail locations. Got zero results. Changed to 100 miles and got 5 results. Changed to 500 miles and got 40 results. Wonder why? Appears that the Hereford program is not very popular. Must be a difference in the programs other than black vs red.
Plus CAB has a govt certification for the "black hide".

I just looked up the requirements again and "Choice" grade qualifies for CAB.

Here are the requirements as of 2017.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/G1CertifiedAngusBeef.pdf

https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/AAALiveAnimalSpecification.pdf

Note the requirement for phenotype:

"Cattle eligible for certification in Angus influence beef programs based on phenotype (appearance) will have a main body that must be solid black, with no other color behind the shoulder, above the flanks, or breaking the midline behind the shoulders, excluding the tail."

That leaves a lot of room for other colors.
 
Last edited:

simme

Old Dumb Guy
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
2,754
Location
South Carolina
A little trivia about CAB. Dr. Jerry Lipsey was involved in the development of CAB in the early years and was recognized for contributing to its success. Later he was the CEO of the American Simmental Association for many years until his retirement. When he came to the simmental association, they were mired in declining numbers and multiple legal issues. Much success and growth under his leadership.

 

Travlr

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
642
Reaction score
796
I seldom knock any breed, they all have their weak points,... feed them side by side, they look the same under the hide. I still don’t see how that hurts beef in general. But I wish I were an Oscar Meyer wiener.
LOL... I'll pass on being anything Oscar Meyer unless it's an heir...

As to "how that hurts beef in general", I can tell you how.

Because of us using artificial insemination to improve our cattle (something we chase as the goal posts are moving), we tend to use top bulls to produce the top herds, and then eventually generating our commercial bulls and replacement heifers. So it's like a pyramid. Top .0000000001% of bulls produce the next tier in the pyramid which is the next .000000001% of a breed. They also get used in every tier below that second layer. When you get to commercial cattle most of the cows are related to the bulls even though they are many layers below the top tier animals.

This has led, and is leading, to a lack of genetic diversity, inbreeding, and genetic anomalies. I suspect that Black Angus are more inbred than any other breed, and yet they are being used to both produce the most popular replacement animals (due to only the color of their hide and the prices the color brings) and to produce black hides in other breeds so they can be competitive.

To their credit, the Angus organizations have identified and admitted there is a problem and they are implementing genetic testing on all top bulls and top cows that are used to flush eggs. But this is all a strategy to keep Black Angus the most profitable breed... only by making sure black cattle are the most profitable regardless of any real discernable difference in quality.

And to be fair, other breeds and those that produce them are also following the Angus model of limiting genetic availability by making the top tier of bulls as small as possible.

Aside from the genetic issues, one of the looming problems is that with a virtually identical genetic pool, any kind of lethal pathogen could potentially infect the entire population of animals that are closely related.
 

Ky hills

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
4,918
Reaction score
3,580
Location
Clark County, KY
Little harsh Kentucky. I seldom knock any breed, they all have their weak points, and I’ve seen my share. Dad loved his Herefords, and I lost count how many prolapsed uteruses I stuffed back in as a kid. Never saw one in an Angus. But feed them side by side, they look the same under the hide. Grandpa used to tell about the shorthorns, and how they brought two cents less per pound when you sent one to market. That’s where Herefords were at when I struck out on my own, Angus are simply worth more. Yes, it is all marketing. Just like John Deere, CaseIH, Ford, Chevy, the list is endless, do. I still don’t see how that hurts beef in general. Thinking on it, I’ve heard Armour hot dogs are the dogs kids love to bite. But I wish I were an Oscar Meyer wiener.
Sorry if what I said seemed harsh, I guess I tend to throw back the kind of things I heard while being involved with Charolais and hearing the laundry list of propaganda and stereotyping of all other breeds by over zealous Angus promoters.
For the record, I don’t hate Angus, and certainly mean no disrespect to Angus breeders. I have several friends who are Angus, breeders. I’ve used Angus bulls for around 20 years, but have been moving in a different direction in recent years, simply because they do not work for me as well as other breeds.
I am quick to acknowledge shortcomings of other breeds as well because they all have them.
 

Latest posts

Top