Travlr
Well-known member
Is the 10% followed by anything else? Like PPM, or IU? Learn to read your tags.
Minerals
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Yes you should learn to read and understand your tags.
They either list %, ppm or iu . They never list % followed by ppm or iu .
Don't list as % of recommended daily intake either . Because that will vary based on numerous things like age , weight , sex , ect !
It is also bs when you claim any mineral will do . For example copper oxide has around 15% bioavailability. While copper sulfate has around 100% bioavailability. So if you used a mineral with copper oxide you would need 667 percent more copper oxide to equal the same amount of bioavailability copper as if you used copper sulfate.
Maybe it's time to put the bottle down!
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Travlr
Well-known member
This is just one of the reasons you are so fun. Making stuff up, or misunderstanding what's being said... and then reacting with that misunderstanding and adding an insult.
It doesn't make you appear smarter than you really are... but I suspect that is what you are going for.
And this as an aside: Critical thinking isn't just "being" critical. Being critical is associated with doubt and skepticism, which is essential to critical thought... but critical thinking is about seeking understanding, embracing reality, finding the truth between the extremes, and being accurate. Anything a person writes can be read in different ways. We can write the most accurate and innocently meant comments, and someone will read them without thinking about what might be meant instead of their first, gut reaction. Being critical without critical thought is just unconstructive thinking.
Spin it any way you want .
But your claim that any supplement regardless of cost will do the same thing isn't supported by science .
100mg of copper oxide feed to a herd of cattle will not have the same effect when feed to a herd of cattle as 100mg of copper sulfate.
Travlr
Well-known member
Fixed it for you...
Le·git·i·mate
adjective
adjective: legitimate
/ləˈjidəmət/
- conforming to the law or to rules.
"his claims to legitimate authority"
Similar: legal, lawful, licit, legalized, authorized, permitted, permissible, allowable, allowed, recognized, sanctioned, approved, licensed, valid, etc...
able to be defended with logic or justification.
"a legitimate excuse for being late"
I shouldn't have to look this word up for you.
Both copper oxide and copper sulfate are legitimately and regularly used in cattle mineral mix . If you understood the very basics of bioavailability you would understand why what type of mineral matters and why chelated vs non chelated matters.
Cheaper mineral mixes use copper oxide because copper sulfate is more expensive but at the same amount fed to cattle copper sulfate will provide approximately 667% more copper that is bioavailable to be used by the cow. Big difference.
Cheaper mineral mixes use copper oxide because copper sulfate is more expensive but at the same amount fed to cattle copper sulfate will provide approximately 667% more copper that is bioavailable to be used by the cow. Big difference.
Stickney94
Well-known member
If a cow needs 10 ppm (parts per million) daily, and I have minerals that show 150 ppm and another that shows 2500 ppm (both of which list copper sulfate as the source) how much copper is taken in and how much is excreted in a daily 4 oz suggested ration? 
The 2500 ppm seems like overkill -- but because the base has distillers grain which is high in sulfer (which evidently ties up copper) -- is that mineral better or the same as the 150 ppm that uses salt as the base?
Actual expert info here.
The 2500 ppm seems like overkill -- but because the base has distillers grain which is high in sulfer (which evidently ties up copper) -- is that mineral better or the same as the 150 ppm that uses salt as the base?
Actual expert info here.
Not sure what your question means but you won't see %'s mixed with ppm or iu's when referring to the same nutrient on a tag.
% refers to what fraction of the whole piece is that nutrient. For example 10% calcium means 5 lbs calcium in a 50 lb bag.
Silver
Well-known member
Well, actually you do see %, ppm and IU's on the same label. Even the label shown on this thread in the first post
M.Magis
Well-known member
I think he means in reference to one single component. Its either ppm or %, but not both.
I have long believed that what we DON'T know about minerals and their interactions with our cattle is more than what we DO know. This thread proves that. There have been several very good, if controversial, posts. The folks that have studied this can tell us the requirements of every vitamin and mineral required by our cattle, based on their age and physiological stage. I assume they are accurate. What we don't know is what portion of those requirements are being supplied by our forage/supplements. As gcreek has done, unless we test our forage and supplements, perhaps monthly, we will not know if we are providing sufficient nutrients.There are producers on this board who have never fed any minerals, including salt, and are very happy with their production. There are producers who feed a top of the line mineral package and swear their program would crash and burn without it. Who is right and who is wrong? There is tremendous variability in soils, and therefore forages, across the country. There can be tremendous deficiencies in certain elements in certain areas. Unless you know what your forages/supplements are providing, you are simply rolling the dice. A cow eating 4 oz/day of a $25/bag mineral is about $45-50/ cow/year. Is that money thrown away if they don't really need it, or is that money we pay out to be sure we're covering a potential shortfall that could be costing us in production? We need to know wife, what and when we need these supplemental materials and vitamins.
Little Joe
Well-known member
I know very little about minerals other than what I learn from others, in fact I went for years and never offered minerals other than a trace salt block but I had several conception problems over the years. Mineral related? No idea for sure. I keep out mineral now. Right now I have my cattle divided up, I have some feeders in one paddock, dry cows in one and my bull and cow/calf pairs in another. The dry cows and feeders are barely hitting the mineral while the pairs are consuming it daily, even the calves. Through the summer they barely touch the mineral at times, so I assume means the grass is providing what they need.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
If you want to assess how your mineral program is working, there are blood tests available. Some minerals like copper are best assessed with a liver biopsy. Get a "physical" with lab work for a few cows and know if they are low, normal, or high - at time of sample collection. Check out the liver biopsy procedure with the special long needle.
Liver Biopsy Procedure in Cattle
cvm.msu.edu
OP
OP
tcolvin
Well-known member
Why do they use the oxide form if it needs to be different form? I see a lot of oxides in this label. The Zinc, iron, magnesium, and manganous all are oxide. Looks like they would get the palable form to use. What is manganous ?
Cost !
Oxides are cheap and many don't know any better. Companies are in business to make a profit.
redcowsrule33
Well-known member
Don't forget that there are also vitamins in these mixes which are just as important. Stored feeds become deficient as well as drought stress, molds, and dormant forage. Vitamins stored in the liver only last a few months assuming they had adequate stored going into the deficiency.
BlueCollarCattle
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interesting conservation on mineral supplements. Had major conception problems years ago. Grazing fescue created issues plus copper issues. Went with a chelated form of minerals ( pricey). Fixed a lot of problems we had. Not 100%. Some cows just weren't fertile. Anyway seen a lot of mention about Vitaferm minerals. Decent mineral. But over priced in our opinion. We now feed medicated Kent chelated mineral and a custom blend from a specialty outfit. All with chelated minerals for rumen bypass for absorption. The minerals are advertised as Availa4 or hydroxychloride. Good luck
BlueCollarCattle
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BlueCollarCattle
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Travlr
Well-known member
I'd like to know where you have the problems with mineral deficiencies. State? Maybe even more specific? If you go to your profile you can put your location on it so we don't need to ask.
