Mineral tubs

[Travlr]

We and a nutritionist spent ten years getting it right. Improved health in about 15 herds that total about 3500 mother cows that now use our mix is likely a good indicator improvements were needed and paid off.

That's a long time and a lot of testing, research, and concern. How did you determine there was a problem that pertained to trace minerals? Blood draws/tests? Chemical analysis (of what)? Anything like that?

Are the issues/solutions you found specific to your area?

 

[wbvs58]

That "too much and too little" really makes me wonder. Are there wild animals in the natural habitat that are having problems?

I have to admit that I'm skeptical of these people selling minerals as an all inclusive solution to problems. I see it as snake oil. On the other hand... I do know there are areas where some kind of deficiencies exist. And I do know that there are very small amounts of nutrients that can enhance health. But overall I'd bet that 90% of minerals are sold to assuage fears generated by advertising (including "articles/studies" meant to generate concern by people that want to do the best they can for their animals but without any real knowledge other than what they read in those articles/studies) and in the end the result is good feelings due to a placebo effect.

And not saying this is you... just that it happens.

You just have to look at the label names like Conceptaid. It tugs at the heart chords, how can I not use it?

Ken

 

[WAnabee]

I have seen some pretty serious symptoms of copper deficiency here in NW Washington as well. Had a steer that was unable to stand up, makes them almost lame somehow, i think at that point we may have given it a shot of copper but it turned around amazingly fast. Then the the red/rough hair coat on black cattle is the big indicator of low copper. Local feed mill sells salt/copper mineral mix its kinda spendy but seems to make a major difference.

 

[Travlr]

You just have to look at the label names like Conceptaid. It tugs at the heart chords, how can I not use it?

Ken

I've been doing a little reading on copper deficiencies and the symptoms sound a lot like B12 deficiencies in humans.

 

[gcreekrch]

That's a long time and a lot of testing, research, and concern. How did you determine there was a problem that pertained to trace minerals? Blood draws/tests? Chemical analysis (of what)? Anything like that?

Are the issues/solutions you found specific to your area?

Part of it was actually learned by watching the "What happens next" segments on Sesame Street with Bert and Ernie when I was 5 or 6 years old.
When your cows are in good condition, vaccines help but don't eliminate problems you start looking for other things that may help. We were feeding a mineral mix that was designed for an area similar to here but not here. Once we did some feed samples and found how far out of whack it was we did our own thing and saw results almost immediately.

I don't believe scours or other health problems in cattle are specific to this area alone. I do believe most would be surprised what changes the right mineral does….. Right Silver?

 

[Travlr]

I don't believe scours or other health problems in cattle are specific to this area alone. I do believe most would be surprised what changes the right mineral does…..

Do you think everywhere has nutritional deficiencies? We just aren't aware because what we see we consider normal?

How deep does this rabbit hole go? What other symptoms could be associated with mineral supplement solutions?

I'm inclined to believe animals have evolved in the world in ways that they adjust... if not just tolerant of most things in the environment. But then, I've also never had what I thought were problems. Cows breed and drop calves, calves grow fine, and in areas I'm familiar with others have the same. Really, the only reason I had salt blocks at all was because I did see some grass tetany in Arkansas and I had a vet long before that tell me magnesium blocks would prevent problems with that one thing.

 

[gcreekrch]

Do you think everywhere has nutritional deficiencies? We just aren't aware because what we see we consider normal?

How deep does this rabbit hole go? What other symptoms could be associated with mineral supplement solutions?

I'm inclined to believe animals have evolved in the world in ways that they adjust... if not just tolerant of most things in the environment. But then, I've also never had what I thought were problems. Cows breed and drop calves, calves grow fine, and in areas I'm familiar with others have the same. Really, the only reason I had salt blocks at all was because I did see some grass tetany in Arkansas and I had a vet long before that tell me magnesium blocks would prevent problems with that one thing.

One can be penny wise and dollar foolish. I don't think it pays to let everything go natural and work on a 50% calf crop.

 

[Travlr]

One can be penny wise and dollar foolish. I don't think it pays to let everything go natural and work on a 50% calf crop.

LOL... I'd be willing to put my numbers up against anyone in the commercial business in the years I was in business. And you're right, people can be sold some pretty unnecessary things, but also not recognize how something can help. "Cheap Insurance" is one of the most expensive things people pay for when it is unnecessary expense.

I'm just here, trying to learn. My experience is minerals were more placebo than necessary, but then I' never lived around anyone that had trouble with animals traced to trace mineral deficiencies

 

[gcreekrch]

LOL... I'd be willing to put my numbers up against anyone in the commercial business in the years I was in business. And you're right, people can be sold some pretty unnecessary things, but also not recognize how something can help. "Cheap Insurance" is one of the most expensive things people pay for when it is unnecessary expense.

I'm just here, trying to learn. My experience is minerals were more placebo than necessary, but then I' never lived around anyone that had trouble with animals traced to trace mineral deficiencies

If you never tried how do you know a mineral program wouldn't have made you money?

 

[Travlr]

If you never tried how do you know a mineral program wouldn't have made you money?

That's like saying I should do 3K mile oil changes just because I might get an extra 10K miles on a truck I'll be selling or trading in.

You still haven't really listed the problems you were having and what your solution did for you. You mentioned scours. Was that the reason you needed minerals?

I said I used salt blocks. Did I really need them? I really don't know. It was more for seeing the herd come down out of the hills so I didn't need to go up and find them to check on them. Of course the grass tetany too, but that was only springtime.

I'm not here to argue or to be sold on something. I'm here to learn. I'll gladly tell you my experiences and offer why I have doubts or where I agree... but if you feel it's an argument then we can end it here. I'd still like to know what the problems were that you cured, and what you think the mineral did to help.

 

[gcreekrch]

That's like saying I should do 3K mile oil changes just because I might get an extra 10K miles on a truck I'll be selling or trading in.

You still haven't really listed the problems you were having and what your solution did for you. You mentioned scours. Was that the reason you needed minerals?

I said I used salt blocks. Did I really need them? I really don't know. It was more for seeing the herd come down out of the hills so I didn't need to go up and find them to check on them. Of course the grass tetany too, but that was only springtime.

I'm not here to argue or to be sold on something. I'm here to learn. I'll gladly tell you my experiences and offer why I have doubts or where I agree... but if you feel it's an argument then we can end it here. I'd still like to know what the problems were that you cured, and what you think the mineral did to help.

No, I think you are more here to stir the pot. Do your own research like we did. When you find a solution, question that. I'm not done learning by a long shot either.

 

[angus9259]

All the mineral evidence I've ever seen is anecdotal. That said, I kinda feel the same way about EPDs for the most part. We ag folks believe this stuff - that a blood draw can tell you the ribeye area of a bull's progeny, but we don't get our own selves vaccinated because it's a scam. We're an odd bunch.

That said, I have mineral tubs out. Do they do any good? I don't know. I get the philosophy behind them, but have I seen the science? No. And one person telling me one thing about something that happened at their place isn't science. It's anecdote. I also got myself vaccinated and my testicles haven't dried up and I've not gotten sick. But I wasn't really getting sick before either. Yet my neighbors friend had a brother who's uncle's neighbor dropped dead after getting vaccinated so what was I thinking???

If you please excuse me, I have to run some fresh tubs to the cattle all while feeling guilty that I should be using loose mineral but realizing I just don't have time or equipment or place or set up for loose mineral so I'm undoubtedly wasting my money even though the mineral guys tell me they work great.

 

[Ebenezer]

Some problems from the lack of minerals (as if we don't already know!): low calving rate, fescue toxicity, grass tetany, hoof rot, cracked hooves, red hair, long hair, low fertility... The #1 mineral that cattle need is H2O. That might sound dumb but the most weight increase we ever saw was installing more and better sources of water. I have "lived" this mineral deal for decades. As we stepped from blocks (a general waste compared to returns) to cheap loose minerals to adding some supplements ourselves to going from learning to learning to learning - we are not with a custom mineral. We switch from Hi Mag now through Mother's Day and back on a summer mineral for the rest of the year. The custom mix is odd for some as we use chicken litter and that is high P. Minerals don't need to supply it. The ingredients that have cured a lot of ills: copper, zinc, iodine, selenium and maybe a few more but with above standard levels of these ingredients which are found in cheap minerals. And the source ingredients are not the economical cheapest to do the best.

This talk and babble about running cattle like "nature" is a smoke screen. Who checks the fawning rates of does and culls the ones that do not breed, have birth troubles... or culls every buck that is slow growing and thin muscled? Or how about culling for the hard-doing deer or the ones most susceptible to disease? This comparative is worn out and has no validity.

Regions and soils vary. Breeds vary. Expectations vary. One constant: blocks are a poor source of minerals in adequate amounts for daily needs. Another constant: tubs are expensive, whether protein, energy or mineral types. But they are convenient and I have used them judiciously when weaning or doing AI. I use them at those times for my advantage.

It's all about expectations. I want a calving season of less than 60 days. I want adequate growth and acceptable type, conformation and muscling in calves. You likely want something else and rightly so. But it takes decent, loose and proper minerals around here to make it happen here. I know that from 50+ years of seeing it all.

 

[Silver]

I don't believe scours or other health problems in cattle are specific to this area alone. I do believe most would be surprised what changes the right mineral does….. Right Silver?

To be honest the jury is still out. I'm in my fourth winter of feeding free choice mineral custom blended for the area. Prior to feeding mineral we were fortunate that our conception rates were above average, as were weaned pounds per cow exposed and herd health was good. Close monitoring of calving does seem to show that we are getting more calves born in the first cycle. Enough so that I shortened the calving season to 6 weeks this year. So we haven't seen anything dramatic but enough to keep going I think. I'm thinking of having an ionophore added next order.

 

[gcreekrch]

To be honest the jury is still out. I'm in my fourth winter of feeding free choice mineral custom blended for the area. Prior to feeding mineral we were fortunate that our conception rates were above average, as were weaned pounds per cow exposed and herd health was good. Close monitoring of calving does seem to show that we are getting more calves born in the first cycle. Enough so that I shortened the calving season to 6 weeks this year. So we haven't seen anything dramatic but enough to keep going I think. I'm thinking of having an ionophore added next order.

Good choice, add Biomoss too.

 

[Warren Allison]

This talk and babble about running cattle like "nature" is a smoke screen. Who checks the fawning rates of does and culls the ones that do not breed, have birth troubles... or culls every buck that is slow growing and thin muscled? Or how about culling for the hard-doing deer or the ones most susceptible to disease? This comparative is worn out and has no validity.

True. Unlike domesticated animals, in the wild, the predators do the culling.

Regions and soils vary. Breeds vary. Expectations vary. One constant: blocks are a poor source of minerals in adequate amounts for daily needs. Another constant: tubs are expensive, whether protein, energy or mineral types. But they are convenient and I have used them judiciously when weaning or doing AI. I use them at those times for my advantage.

Also true. On our 100-120 cow operation, we spent about $10-$11 per head per year on free-choice loose minerals. No way can you provide adequate minerals with blocks at that cost.

 

[gcreekrch]

True. Unlike domesticated animals, in the wild, the predators do the culling.

Predators kill whatever they want. The weak and sick bs is a fairy tail.

 

[Travlr]

No, I think you are more here to stir the pot. Do your own research like we did. When you find a solution, question that. I'm not done learning by a long shot either.

Well thanks anyway. Sorry my questions made you uncomfortable.

 

[Travlr]

Some problems from the lack of minerals (as if we don't already know!): low calving rate, fescue toxicity, grass tetany, hoof rot, cracked hooves, red hair, long hair, low fertility...

Well if you can do better than 92% calf crop in sixty days and 600 pound weaning weights at 205 days on 1200 pound cows by using specialized minerals then go for it. The grass of choice in the area was fescue. I had one cow with hoof rot and treated it with iodine after cleaning out the infection between the toes, and that was the only cow I ever had with the problem. There was seasonal grass tetany around, so mag blocks in the spring. But are there any areas with all of those problems? I don't know of anyone else in my area that was feeding loose, special formula minerals or would have because the problems were more related to good selection practices back then... or at least we all thought so.

And most of us fed chicken litter when we could get it, which was pretty often, so maybe we were getting minerals that way. But it wasn't terribly consistent.

Me trying to ask all the questions isn't being argumentative. If someone's not asking all the questions then they aren't looking for the real answers.

The #1 mineral that cattle need is H2O.

I can agree with that.

This talk and babble about running cattle like "nature" is a smoke screen. Who checks the fawning rates of does and culls the ones that do not breed, have birth troubles... or culls every buck that is slow growing and thin muscled? Or how about culling for the hard-doing deer or the ones most susceptible to disease? This comparative is worn out and has no validity.

That's a basic misunderstanding of the concept, but it was just an example used to provide material to extrapolate from.

Regions and soils vary. Breeds vary. Expectations vary.

Yup... and that's why I'm asking of those in areas with problems.

One constant: blocks are a poor source of minerals in adequate amounts for daily needs.

Not always, but as you say, things vary.

But it takes decent, loose and proper minerals around here to make it happen here. I know that from 50+ years of seeing it all.

Glad you figured it out for your needs in your area.

 

[Warren Allison]

Predators kill whatever they want. The weak and sick bs is a fairy tail.

Nope. Nothing fairy tale or BS about it. Predators go after the easiest prey....the old, very young and sick or injured. They spend as little energy as they can, and try to limit their exposure to injury. Sorry, but that is how it was for 100.00s of thousands of years. God knew what he was doing when he created prey and predators. It insures a healthy herbivore population. Once man started domesticating live stock, and intruding on wilderness areas, often confining them in pastures, the livestock becomes the easier prey.