Lowline angus bull in pic - any good?

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simcross":1fwbjapg said:
From what I have read Lowline angus was an experiment where they picked out small frame cattle bred them to small frame bulls selecting the smaller frame as replacements this went on for about 50 years. When they decided to end the program they sold the cattle herd they found out there was a lot of interest in the lowline cattle, either hobby, pets or to raise their own freezer beef a lot of people wanted the lowline beef

Lowline cattle were derived from a NSW Dept. of Agriculture project initiated in the early 1970's at their Research Station located in Trangie, New South Wales. They had noticed the trend by cattle breeders to select larger replacement sires and sought to answer the question "were larger cattle more profitable?". They divided their registered Angus herd into three groups, a High Line, a Low Line and a Control Line and for the next 20 years (approx) selected replacement sires for each group, from within each group, based on birth to yearling growth rates.

The major finding of this project was that size was irrelevant for all intents and purposes - what was critical was the efficiency with which cows converted feed to milk/calf growth. Within all three lines, some cows were up to 100% more efficient than others in the same line. As a result of this experiment, Trangie moved on to test feed-efficiency and is still researching this area today. The recent development of genetic testing for feed efficiency (a la Genestar) is an outcome of this project. Hope this adds something to something

Regards

Jack
 
Many thanks WAguy - was able to find the info I needed @ http://lowline.une.edu.au/

Nice to put a name to a face ;-)

The database I manage is an attempt to map the pedigree of an Angus ('Lowline') bull that a mate of mine bred, back to all its original Scottish ancestors. 6886 animals identified so far anc counting - almost done (famous last words!)

Kind regards

jack
 
Ozraptor":eece22v3 said:
simcross":eece22v3 said:
From what I have read Lowline angus was an experiment where they picked out small frame cattle bred them to small frame bulls selecting the smaller frame as replacements this went on for about 50 years. When they decided to end the program they sold the cattle herd they found out there was a lot of interest in the lowline cattle, either hobby, pets or to raise their own freezer beef a lot of people wanted the lowline beef

Lowline cattle were derived from a NSW Dept. of Agriculture project initiated in the early 1970's at their Research Station located in Trangie, New South Wales. They had noticed the trend by cattle breeders to select larger replacement sires and sought to answer the question "were larger cattle more profitable?". They divided their registered Angus herd into three groups, a High Line, a Low Line and a Control Line and for the next 20 years (approx) selected replacement sires for each group, from within each group, based on birth to yearling growth rates.

The major finding of this project was that size was irrelevant for all intents and purposes - what was critical was the efficiency with which cows converted feed to milk/calf growth. Within all three lines, some cows were up to 100% more efficient than others in the same line. As a result of this experiment, Trangie moved on to test feed-efficiency and is still researching this area today. The recent development of genetic testing for feed efficiency (a la Genestar) is an outcome of this project. Hope this adds something to something

Regards

Jack
Is there a web site on this project?
 
WAguy":14rdvr7r said:
I have a couple of small cows I need a small bull for. What do you think of this lowline angus bull? I’m no expert â€" he just looks good to me.


Vitulusyes-1.jpg

I do not care for dwarf cattle. If there is a niche maket for them best of luck to the breeders.
With that said, this bulls rear one third is a structural nightmare. If he is on cows working as mine does.. I'd venture to say he'll be broken down in 3 years after strting service.
 
Avalon":2r6d9yqf said:
WAguy":2r6d9yqf said:
I have a couple of small cows I need a small bull for. What do you think of this lowline angus bull? I’m no expert â€" he just looks good to me.


Vitulusyes-1.jpg

I do not care for dwarf cattle. If there is a niche maket for them best of luck to the breeders.
With that said, this bulls rear one third is a structural nightmare. If he is on cows working as mine does.. I'd venture to say he'll be broken down in 3 years after starting service.
Avalon is right! In spite of a few advantageous traits that this bull possesses, take a long HARD look at his hindquarters from his hooks to his tailhead and pins! His hind legs are post-legged, (almost straight up and down), which will limit him, at best, to just a few years of breeding activity, and he will be stifled and useless as a breeding bull. He will stamp his calves with the same negative characteristics as he demonstrates! His rump is absolutely unacceptable in its sloping angle, and that makes him useless as a breeding bull - genetically and phenotypically.

DOC HARRIS
 
:-(

Sometimes it pays to read the discussion thread a little more carefully ;-). There is no website on the Trangie/Meat Research Council Project - it was in the days before the Net. Their reports are available in hardcopy - I don't have one at hand to be able to quite a reference unfortunately.

Jack (if I had half a brain it would be lonely) Russell
 
Ozraptor":37kprmgf said:
:-(

Sometimes it pays to read the discussion thread a little more carefully ;-). There is no website on the Trangie/Meat Research Council Project - it was in the days before the Net. Their reports are available in hardcopy - I don't have one at hand to be able to quite a reference unfortunately.

Jack (if I had half a brain it would be lonely) Russell
I would not expect to find that they had the net at that time. :roll:
I have found many things on the net that were copied from the past and placed on here.
 
I just must be slow. I still can;t figure out what the point is in recreating belt buckle cattle.
 
dun":16k2na43 said:
I just must be slow. I still can;t figure out what the point is in recreating belt buckle cattle.

Me too, Dun.

I guess it's the "Small" frame mentality rearing it's head and going way overboard.

The market is asking for 800-1000 lb. Choice carcasses with YG 1's & 2's.

We should be supplying it.

People are so intent on having an "efficient?" cow that they are forgetting that their calves are the product they are selling.

You and I have been around long enough to see most of the fads come and go............ :roll:
 
I think this thread had already established that this bull is no good and that there is no place for these cattle in commercial herds. But there are people who don't want 1500 pound cows.

Jack, do you know why this bull has won so many shows if he is so poor? What is going on in Australia with the judging?
 
:roll:

You have got to be kidding me.

Someone resurrects this post for a different reason, and yet people start saying the same things over again, things that have already been said on this thread.

So . . . I will reply again.

Dun:
I just must be slow. I still can;t figure out what the point is in recreating belt buckle cattle.

The biggest factor making beef-type Dexters, Lowlines, Square Meaters and other such small cattle profitable, sustainable and relevant to the industry is this: yes, the majority of markets in Australia call for a larger animal. BUT, our domestic (supermarket and restauraunt) market calls for a small carcase with adequate fat and marbling. The thing is, with 'normal' cattle, at the lower weight it is hard to get the finish on them, and the marbling. So you either get the weight right but not enough fat and marble, or you get the fat and marble right but the carcase is too heavy. Where these small breeds excel is that, at weaning time the calves are just the right size for the market, and being smaller framed they tend to be earlier maturing, so that they have the correct finish and marble too. You can turn the calves straight off the cow, or shortly after weaning, with minimal extra feed, and hit the markets specs exactly.

Other promoted 'advantages' include easier to handle (debatable), do not need as much space so can be stocked at higher rates, thereby increasing production per hectare, for the same reason are ideal for smaller properties, and the calves are smaller (easier for smaller people/women to pull and carry).

People always compare small breeds to belt buckle animals of the past.

Belt buckle bull
Belt_buckle_angus_bull.jpg


Belt buckle female
Belt_buckle_angus_female.jpg


Compare these with the Lowline bull posted. The only similarity I see is that they are both black.

Mike:
The market is asking for 800-1000 lb. Choice carcasses with YG 1's & 2's.

As I mentioned above, the main markets are not the only markets.

Avalon:
I do not care for dwarf cattle

They are not dwarves. Dwarfism is characterised by having a large head out of proportion to the body. Lowlines and other small breeds have heads in proportion to their body. Compare to the description and pictures in this link. http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/pdfs/bch/01900.pdf

WAguy:
do you know why this bull has won so many shows if he is so poor? What is going on in Australia with the judging?

I already responded to this as well. In Australia we have many small, one day local shows. Cattle entries usually total around fifty, but some only get 10 or so head. Most of these shows are now starting to be judged as interbreed, but some of them still hold classes for each breed. So this bull could be taken along, he would be the only Lowline there, and he would be given the ribbons for Junior Champion Bull, Grand Champion Bull and Supreme Lowline Exhibit. In the same way, it is highly likely my Angoras will be the only ones exhibited at Henty, The Rock and Wagga shows this year, so afterwards I would (theoretically) be able to advertise my buck as Champion Angora Buck at Henty Show, Supreme Exhibit at Wagga and Grand Champion Male at The Rock show. But it doesnt really mean anything, does it? In contrast, a friends doe was Supreme Exhibit at a royal show a few years ago, beating 80 other animals. But if the two were advertised together, you wouldnt be able to differentiate. To find out if his show wins are significant, you need to know what shows he was exhibited at, and how many cattle were exhibited in the breed.
 
Keren":185s82p7 said:
Dun:
I just must be slow. I still can;t figure out what the point is in recreating belt buckle cattle.

The biggest factor making beef-type Dexters, Lowlines, Square Meaters and other such small cattle profitable, sustainable and relevant to the industry is this: yes, the majority of markets in Australia call for a larger animal. BUT, our domestic (supermarket and restauraunt) market calls for a small carcase with adequate fat and marbling. The thing is, with 'normal' cattle, at the lower weight it is hard to get the finish on them, and the marbling. So you either get the weight right but not enough fat and marble, or you get the fat and marble right but the carcase is too heavy. Where these small breeds excel is that, at weaning time the calves are just the right size for the market, and being smaller framed they tend to be earlier maturing, so that they have the correct finish and marble too. You can turn the calves straight off the cow, or shortly after weaning, with minimal extra feed, and hit the markets specs exactly.

Other promoted 'advantages' include easier to handle (debatable), do not need as much space so can be stocked at higher rates, thereby increasing production per hectare, for the same reason are ideal for smaller properties, and the calves are smaller (easier for smaller people/women to pull and carry).

People always compare small breeds to belt buckle animals of the past.

Belt buckle bull
Belt_buckle_angus_bull.jpg


Belt buckle female
Belt_buckle_angus_female.jpg


Compare these with the Lowline bull posted. The only similarity I see is that they are both black.

.

What is the advantage of cattle that don;t have what our market wants. The ideal is around a 1 inch steakc that weighs a pound.
Dexters are in a whole different category then lowlines or square meaters. They're more of the dairy/combination breed then a strictly beef breed.
 
WAguy":3k3mxkxs said:
I think this thread had already established that this bull is no good and that there is no place for these cattle in commercial herds. But there are people who don't want 1500 pound cows.

Jack, do you know why this bull has won so many shows if he is so poor? What is going on in Australia with the judging?

WAguy

Sorry, but I can't tell you if, or why this bull may or may not have been favoured in the show ring. To be honest, I know Sweet Fanny Adams about cattle (other than they have four legs and Moo). My personal view is anything will win in a show ring if there is no competition ;-) I will send a copy of this thread to Greg Rhodes, for whom I do the website, and will post his comments. Greg's brother established the Broken Arrow Low Line stud in 1993 and 'sold the farm' in mid 2000. Greg did the breed selection from that time and has continued since 2000 when they dispersed most of the herd. Broken Arrow showed for a period in the mid nineties with a deal of success but stopped about '97. Greg is not a fan of (artificial) feeding. From my (limited) unterstanding, shows promote and reinforce 'fashion' which is proffitable in the show/sale yard but not in the commercial sense - will add further comments to a later post. IMHO - a bull is only any good if he returns additional $ from the sale of his progeny.

But then, what would I know ;-)

JR
 
Keren":n42lgbnm said:
Where these small breeds excel is that, at weaning time the calves are just the right size for the market, and being smaller framed they tend to be earlier maturing, so that they have the correct finish and marble too. You can turn the calves straight off the cow, or shortly after weaning, with minimal extra feed, and hit the markets specs exactly.

Keren raises an important/valid point (IMHO) though there may be some debate about the margins. (Some) Angus cattle have a reputation for early maturity. With your indulgence, i will upload something i read that Greg Rhodes wrote over ten tears ago for your comment.

Re: "Belt Buckles" I have never seen an animal like those little 'butterballs' posted above that was raised on grass! What you are looking at in those pictures and pumped up 'midgets' that (meybe) met the fashion of the day. Cattle shows are (or were) maybe just fashion shows.

Will get back to you with a link to the above mentioned article in the near future

Regards/Peace

Jack
 
Keren, I raised my question again, because I keep hoping there's some reason for this bull being a champion other than the total fraud you describe. How can you declare an animal a "Grand Champion" when it's the only one there, and when it has serious defects as pointed out here?

I keep wondering if this bull was just caught in a bad pose. Otherwise, how could his greatness continue to be promoted? Grand Champion in 3 different shows:

http://www.lowline.com.au/showring.html

I've never experienced the show world, but sounds rotten to me. Probably not unique to Australia.
 
Okay, so this thread has had me wondering and wondering. I looked at that website, WAguy, and those shows he was at were major shows here, which I would think would have plenty of Lowlines.

I spoke to Bek, who has worked quite a lot with Australian Lowlines, about how many cattle would be at these shows, and if she had seen the bull in person. She had this to say:

At these shows there would have been at least 50 Lowlines at these show, no less. 60 % would have been bulls, at the least.

And yes I have seen that bull, and that picture is the worst possible one that could've been taken of him. He is one be nice of a bull. I actually even lead him at the Ekka a few years back, and I couldn't fault him much, the only thing was he didn't track quite as well as i would've liked. To tell you the truth, it doesn't even look like the same bull in the picture, because that picture, to say the least is horrible.

He deserved to win at every show he did, and I am actually convinced they put the wrong bull in the photo, because this bull, as far as a Lowline could go, was phenomonal.

This has been siring winners, both Stud Stock and steers here there and everywhere. Like I said I'm convinced that the photo isn't of Vitulus Yes Yes Yes, in fact this bull has just sired winners in the US.

Hope that might clear things up a bit for you, and give you some more to think about.
 
Thank you, Keren. That makes more sense.

Of course, the next question is why they would use a picture of a different bull, or why wouldn't they make sure he's posed right.

Especially if they are using this picture to market him, wouldn't they be more careful? If they know a good bull, seems they'd notice the defects described here.

Sometimes I wonder about photos. Seems if you keep snapping random pictures of anyone, you can get them in a bad pose or position. Like what if he's playing with himself (humping?). Again, seems like if you're marketing him, you'd be more careful.

Not my problem, I guess. I've moved on to other options anyway.
 

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