Lowline angus bull in pic - any good?

[Frankie]

It’s possible that I’m in the wrong crowd here. Probably hard for people with thousands of acres of commercial beef production to relate to the little guy who just wants alittle milk and meat.

I actually tried to make goats work, but they have that smell.

Another question. I’m just wondering how the correct size of animal is determined. I understand that large can be more efficient for handling and slaughter in large operations. But then why don’t sheep producers breed up to 1000 pound sheep?

You're not with the "wrong crowd" here. People with herds of all sizes post here, even some without cattle.

The correct size animal is what works for you. In our case, we sell registered Angus bulls and people like big bulls. So our cows are maybe bigger than some people think they should be for our forage. But they work for us.

The sale barn buyer often decides the "correct size". They are primary market for a smaller producer. And minis, lowlines, etc., will generally sell for less at the sale barn. Good luck....

 

[Keren]

Just thought I would chime in here, regarding both the Lowline/small breeds issue and the 'Australian judges' issue.

Can I point you to this thread http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight= in which a lot of the benefits of Lowlines (and small cattle in general) are discussed.

Take a look at these animals - you cant honestly say that small breeds are only good for pets. These are very much PRODUCTION animals. (Btw, the first bull is 9 1/2 years and still working, and the cow with calf at foot is approx 10 yrs and still producing, she is possibly the most well-decorated animal in the show ring, yet she is also one of the top producing animals in the breed)

Regarding the bit about

but sure makes you wonder how judges in Australia can not understand cattle. Do judges in America understand them? Are shows meaningless?

take a look at these animals

They are all show winning animals, that ALSO produce in the paddock.

I am still curious why Australians don’t read the American journals to learn how a bull should look. Why would they give awards to a bull with so many defects?

Honestly, I believe our show ring reflects commercial aspects more truely than the American show ring. For instance, the trend you have in which fitters glue calves legs up so they appear straight - NOT a desirable production trait. The focus of many showman and show judges on hair - NOT a useful production trait. The often posted comment 'level out her hip to pin' - when in fact a slope from hip to pin creates calving ease, even though not pleasing to the eye. The trend of gluing up a tailhead so it is a good deal higher than the topline, again a high tail set is NOT desirable in the commercial production system. The seeming inability for a judge to pick a steer that will hang up well (after all, that is the purpose of a steer) rather than the 'prettiest' one. These are all issues we do not have. GENERALLY, the Australian showring places animals up on the basis of structure, reproductive ability and production characteristics.

That being said, I agree the bull posted is not the best example of the breed, and my only answer to the second part of your question

Why would they give awards to a bull with so many defects?

is that this breed is not overly represented in shows, and as such this bull may have come up against very little competition, thus winning the ribbons.

 

[Bobg]

Frankie has it right about there being a size of cattle for everyone's needs. I don't necessarily like frame 6 cattle, but they work for alot of people. I prefer a 4.5 to 5 frame. I sell butchered beef and most of my customers don't have the freezer space for a lot of meat.

Bobg

 

[Stocker Steve]

I have seen two small herds of Lowline and Lowline/regular Angus crosses purchased at a premium price to produce grass fed beef. The confirmation did not seem to be real consistent but they were smaller.

I think there is a place for them in the mid west if they can finish out on grass after being carried through one winter.

 

[shortyjock89]

Doc Holliday is an excellent Lowline bull. TJ Stenger in Kentucky owns him. Look up the Lowline website and you will find a list of breeders.

 

[OK Jeanne]

Keren - good looking animals! (I like the silver ones
best!!

 

[Brandonm2]

It's possible that I'm in the wrong crowd here. Probably hard for people with thousands of acres of commercial beef production to relate to the little guy who just wants alittle milk and meat.

Maybe not.

I used to be the first guy to poke fun at those small cattle types.

Now that I am sort of in contact with some folks that raise mini herfs - by the way - if he is reading - you owe me some pics buckaroo!

Met him through a horn question.

They now run about 150 head of mini herfs and make more money with them than I do on the big stuff.

Small is in for the fresh and new country folks on their 5 acre ranchette or farmette.

Eat them or make pets out of them - either way there is money to be had if the business is run right.

Plus I was truly surprized at how good the animals looked.

Bez+

The way things are headed around here if you have 50 acres you could be a BIG rancher 10-20 years from now. They run a road thru a 200 to 1000 acre tract and start selling 10 and 20 acre parcels out of it. To stay in the beef business some counties may have to switch over to minis. There needs to be some common sense to it though. I love a good 2 to 3 frame mama cow; but these 000 frames are bad goats in my mind.

 

[Keren]

Keren - good looking animals! (I like the silver ones
best!!

Just to clarify, the silvers are Square Meaters (not sure if I made that clear in the post or not).

None of the animals are mine, I just did a grab off various websites. I have seen most of them in 'real life' though. I particularly love the SM cow who I just salivate over every time I am lucky enough to see her. She's 10 years old but to looks at her you would guess she was around 5.

I really just wanted to address the issue firstly of small breeds not being commercially orientated, and secondly the comment about "makes you wonder how judges in Australia can not understand cattle" and "why Australians dont read the American journals to learn how a bull should look", which quite frankly offended the he11 out of me, even though I'm pretty sure it wasnt intended to be offensive.

 

[shortyjock89]

Keren - good looking animals! (I like the silver ones
best!!

Just to clarify, the silvers are Square Meaters (not sure if I made that clear in the post or not).

None of the animals are mine, I just did a grab off various websites. I have seen most of them in 'real life' though. I particularly love the SM cow who I just salivate over every time I am lucky enough to see her. She's 10 years old but to looks at her you would guess she was around 5.

I really just wanted to address the issue firstly of small breeds not being commercially orientated, and secondly the comment about "makes you wonder how judges in Australia can not understand cattle" and "why Australians dont read the American journals to learn how a bull should look", which quite frankly offended the he11 out of me, even though I'm pretty sure it wasnt intended to be offensive.

Keren, I applaud you for not lashing out. Instead you showed just how good Australian cattle are!! I know the merit of Australian cattle. I raise Shorthorns, and we have used Australian Sires. Marellan Super Dazzler and Dunbeacon Venture are two of my favorite bulls of all time, and they're from Australia. I had the pleasure of meeting an Australian fellow last summer, and he showed me some of the cattle they raise...wow they are amazing critters!! I think he said they sold a bull for $80,000 American...that's good enough in my book!

 

[capt]

In response to WAguy's question about the ability or lack thereof to assess quality at a show, I become more and more convinced every day that there are fewer and fewer individuals with the ability to correctly analyze structure and phenotype. This is the case in my very humble opinion on every continent. There are those everywhere, Australia included who are very competent judges of quality, structure and phenotype as well as those who cant tell the difference between a stick and a rock so to speak. Possibly the most intelligent thing I can say here is that to ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS REMEMBER that any show any where is the result of one persons opinion on the cattle PRESENT THERE ON THAT DAY/EVENT. There will be very good animals evaluated at a show that have a place in the industry just as there will be animals at a show that should have been castrated or fed and eaten or left for the coyotes to clean up the remains. PLEASE TRY TO REMEMBER THAT A RIBBON IS A REMINDER OF ONE POINT IN TIME OF WHO MADE IT TO THE SHOW TO BE EVALUATED BY ONE PERSON AND THEIR OPINION AND NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE QUALITY OF CATTLE PRESENT IN THAT AREA!!!!!!!!!!

CAPT

 

[WAguy]

You're right Keren, my comments weren't meant to offend. I had no doubt that Australians can judge cattle. I also questioned American judges. I was just trying to provoke a response to end my confusion. Amateurs like me see bulls being advertised as show winners, and we assume that means something and justifies higher semen prices. Apparently not.

On another forum recently, a guy complained that at a show the farms that won (dairies) were the ones who selected the judges. So, from that, Keren's and Capt's input, let me see, if bull owners claim their bull won many shows, they are either:

a. lying and the bull didn't actually win many shows
b. the bull won shows but he was the only bull there
c. won many shows but the owners provided the judges
d. won shows but the judges were inept
e. telling the truth and the bull could actually be good

So, essentially ribbons are worthless.

Is there any kind of independent, reliable scoring system available for bulls' "structure and phenotype", kind of like udder scoring in dairy cows?

Probably isn't super critical for a backyard operator, but I figure why not get something good. Someday I would like to produce more of what I have – Lowline crossed with Jersey – nice smaller dual purpose family cows. Bred to beef, I get a nice beef calf, and can also swipe a gallon milking once daily. Without being a high milk producer, can let the calf take it all if you want to go somewhere.

When I make and sell these type of cows all across America, I will eliminate the entire dairy and beef industries! Sorry.

 

[Frankie]

I don't know about other breeds, but in the US Angus breed, the show industry and beef industry have few cross over bulls. I do think the show ring is starting to change a bit, but in the past they've not paid much attention to EPDs and that has hurt their bulls with commercial cattlemen.

 

[KMacGinley]

Hey Keren: Right on the spot. Would you like to come and Judge our county fair next year? We could use a few thousand Australian Judges here in this country.

Our Judge this year went on and on about this steer or that's bright future and my dad and I got to laughing, since those steers future's were about to come to an abrupt end on the following Monday.

 

[Keren]

You're right Keren, my comments weren't meant to offend. I had no doubt that Australians can judge cattle. I also questioned American judges. I was just trying to provoke a response to end my confusion. Amateurs like me see bulls being advertised as show winners, and we assume that means something and justifies higher semen prices. Apparently not.

On another forum recently, a guy complained that at a show the farms that won (dairies) were the ones who selected the judges. So, from that, Keren's and Capt's input, let me see, if bull owners claim their bull won many shows, they are either:

a. lying and the bull didn't actually win many shows
b. the bull won shows but he was the only bull there
c. won many shows but the owners provided the judges
d. won shows but the judges were inept
e. telling the truth and the bull could actually be good
So, essentially ribbons are worthless.

Is there any kind of independent, reliable scoring system available for bulls' "structure and phenotype", kind of like udder scoring in dairy cows?

Probably isn't super critical for a backyard operator, but I figure why not get something good. Someday I would like to produce more of what I have – Lowline crossed with Jersey – nice smaller dual purpose family cows. Bred to beef, I get a nice beef calf, and can also swipe a gallon milking once daily. Without being a high milk producer, can let the calf take it all if you want to go somewhere.

When I make and sell these type of cows all across America, I will eliminate the entire dairy and beef industries! Sorry.

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!

A bull's showring career is only one aspect of him. Like if you were buying a house you wouldn't just look at say, the roof, you would look at a whole lot of things that come together to make that house a)perfect for you or b)a pile of crap. So when you look at this bull, yes the owners say he has won a lot of ribbons and you've got the options you stated, but you also need to consider other things as well - his PHYSICAL performance, the performance of his progeny, the conditions he has been tested under, his genetics, how he will work with your herd . . . . it goes on and on.

Btw, I like the idea of a lowline/jersey house cow. Got any pictures?

 

[Keren]

Hey Keren: Right on the spot. Would you like to come and Judge our county fair next year? We could use a few thousand Australian Judges here in this country.

Our Judge this year went on and on about this steer or that's bright future and my dad and I got to laughing, since those steers future's were about to come to an abrupt end on the following Monday.

KMacGinely, I'll be there! (I'll PM you my address so you can send me plane tickets) :lol:

 

[ArmyDoc]

I can't see the picture. Is the link expired? Or maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Thanks.

 

[WAguy]

Well, I think I'm getting the big picture. At some point, I need to educate myself on proper structure. I'll see how serious I want to get about all this. Is there a basic manual or text on the matter? I'd like to not only understand how something should look, but why.

If there are reasons for a certain structure, you'd think producers would look not only at EPD's, but show results. I can see if you're just trying to get a steer to butcher weight, you shouldn't care much, but if your replacement heifers come from the same stock, seems you'd want them built right.

ArmyDoc, the photo works on my computer.

Shortyjock, I found a photo of Doc Holliday, and I see the difference, though not a very big picture.

Only thing I need that he hasn't is some color. I've heard, and it seems so with my few cows, that red is cooler and attracts fewer flies than black. Nothing bugs me more than seeing cows covered with flies. Plus, ladies like color, and maybe they'll allow a cow on the back lawn if it goes with the flowers. Like this:

Okay, Keren (by the way, your name is misspelled ;-) ), here is a photo.

Let me explain this menagerie. The black cow on the left is the lowline/Jersey, born Oct '03, bought her in Feb '04. Bred her to 46" Polled Hereford bull and got the whitefaced heifer born Jul '05 (no problem calving). Then bred her to smaller Jersey bull and got the red heifer born Jun '06. Bred black cow and whitefaced heifer to a red percentage lowline bull and got the two heifer calves this May.

So, in just over 3 years, went from one female to 5. I also got different mixes to see how much milk I wanted. Decided the original black cow was just right. Now have females that have the following fraction of Jersey: 1/8, 1/4 (two), 1/2, 3/4. Someone called this titration.

Along with the half-breed, I plan to keep the 1/4 Jersey whitefaced heifer and I just got her bred sooner than her mom, so I can milk her when mom's dry. I can't stand the couple month dry period with store milk on my cheerios - totally unacceptable.

 

[WAguy]

Probably shouldn't take up so much space, but what the heck - here's a recent photo:

 

[Keren]

They look good WAguy.

Here's a link to a thread a while ago. I posted some pretty basic pictures of structural correctness and faults. It will give you some idea.

http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ht=#347191

 

[capt]

Keren, thanks for reposting a very simple and easily understood reference on structure. It could and should be a very valuable reference for those starting with cattle to begin to learn something about.

WAguy, nice pictures of your cattle and it is abvious to me that you want to learn. I put a very high emphasis on structure because I live in a part of the country where cattle must walk alot (long distance as well as up and down hillsides) and poor structured cattle are just simply not profitable. They end up being the poorly conditioned, crippled, late calving types because they just cant cover the country necessary to do their job. Not all areas or herds need that capability, but they do need to be sound enough structured to make it to the slaughter plant. Not to mention that fact that I see red when
I see someones attempt at making a club calf and the poor calf cant walk at all because the hind legs are too posty and there is no flex in his joints.

I truly hope you are learning something here and not just thinking that I hate show cattle, because I dont. I just hate single trait selection, whether it be for ribbons, marbling or low birth weight.

capt