Longhorn cross

[Warren Allison]

Kentucky Fried Chicken is not a good example, it's barely fit to eat anymore. We stopped eating there years ago.
CAB is a good product. If we didn't have our own beef, which is usually Hereford, sometimes Angus. We would be buying CAB when possible as we would have to go to another city to get it. I e said many times that the CAB ground beef product was higher quality than run of the mill store bought hamburger. CAB steaks and roasts were on par with choice store bought beef. The reason I support CAB is that it is a product of USA. No offense to our Canadian friends
They have great cattle, and standards. If there is need to import beef they are at the top of my list of sources.
My point is and has been that similar grades of beef will be similar regardless of breed. The CAB marketing has convinced a country full of people that don't know the names and could not recognize any breed of cattle that Angus is the best. Now some folks are learning about Wagyu.
With CAB any black hided feeder that meets their criteria, which is not an apparent extremely high bar is eligible.
That means other breed crosses and very likely even purebred Simmentals, and others even Holsteins. May be perfectly legal, but at the very least it's misleading.

Simmentals, yes That's why they "bred up" with Angus.... to turn them black. No dairy cattle can qualify, even if you got one that was solid black.

 

[Travlr]

That all good and well if your plan is to go into the same business as he is.
You will never be able to out bid him or buy better then him , because your pockets aren't as deep.
As I have said before I could care less what type of cattle make the next guy the most money. My interest is in the cattle I raise making a profit for me.
over the last 40 plus years I have watched one of the biggest ranchers in my area. He didn't start out very big ,but over the years he has been able to successfully increase the number of cattle he raises and the number of acres he owns.
how has he succeeded when many others have failed or sold out.
It is the exact opposite of what you suggest.
When everyone else is buying he is selling. When everyone else is selling he is buying.
When cattle prices were extremely high he sold over 50 percent of his herd. When prices crashed he rebuilt his herd with higher quality cattle than when he reduced his herd size , at a fraction of the cost .
He went from an average size herd to one of the largest and continues to grow not just short term success but success for the long haul.

I've seen people become successful/larger operations by anticipating markets well too. When people are in a drought and selling their cows... they are buying heifers to breed and sell as replacements. When they see less calves they are buying steers because the demand from feedlots will be higher. And they mange hay the same way. They buy early in a bad year and buy later in a productive year.

 

[Travlr]

Simmentals, yes That's why they "bred down" with Angus.... to turn them black.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Warren Allison]

I'll bite because this was a bit much, @alacowman1 and him know some of the same dudes in the roping circles, so there's one you can't say much about. The bar for biker is pretty easy to figure out, tons of people own bikes and ride in MCs. He's detailed in many threads that he once did cow-calf for himself but mostly has raised smaller batches for himself and traded much more so. He's listed people he knows with a few big ranches which would be a big limb to go out on if somebody couldn't ask them, hell I think he even knows @kenny thomas and some of the others if you need somebody's in person review. As far as his grandfather paying for school, I don't get the skepticism there. As far as business goes, I remember the thread where he talked about his heart problems and he seemed to move a lot of money pretty quickly so I reckon I'm inclined to believe that too.

Or maybe I'm just slower to call a man a flat out liar, I try to save that for when I know it's true without a doubt.

He is a pathetic, bitter, jealous, little "man"...and I use the tern "man" loosely when referring to that p.o.s. Last time he was on here with his crap was several months ago, and he has been gone till this week. These forums became fun and informative again, til now. A LOT of people on here feel the same way, from the messages I have gotten the past few days. Maybe it won't be long til he is gone again. Just ignore him and the 4 or 5 on here like him. They are all pretty big talkers when hiding behind their computer screen. They are most likely trying to compensate for impotence. 9 times out of 10, when these Big Bad Keyboard Cowboys do this sh*t, in the safety of distance and some-what anonaminity, it is due to their ED.

 

[Ky hills]

Simmentals, yes That's why they "bred up" with Angus.... to turn them black. No dairy cattle can qualify, even if you got one that was solid black.

May not be Holstein in now but pretty confident that it was the practice for at least a while, even though it says otherwise now,
As @Jeanne - Simme Valley can attest to, Simmentals long with other continental breeds did not breed up to be qualified for anything Angus CAB or anything else other than Simmental. They were breeding up years before CAB and it was not to turn them black it was simple using what ever cows someone had breeding them to purebred Simmental bulls and retaining the heifers and breeding them to Simmental generation after generation until purebred Simmental status, with a number of them being black. The CAB and black hide business came about later and American Simmentals were already in a position to use that to their advantage.
With the popularity of Simmentals now mainly because they grow better than average Angus, I'd say a significant portion of CAB is actually Simmental X.

 

[Travlr]

He is a pathetic, bitter, jealous, little "man"...and I use the tern "man" loosely when referring to that p.o.s. Last time he was on here with his crap was several months ago, and he has been gone till this week. These forums became fun and informative again, til now. A LOT of people on here feel the same way, from the messages I have gotten the past few days. Maybe it won't be long til he is gone again. Just ignore him and the 4 or 5 on here like him. They are all pretty big talkers when hiding behind their computer screen. They are most likely trying to compensate for impotence. 9 times out of 10, when these Big Bad Keyboard Cowboys do this sh*t, in the safety of distance and some-what anonaminity, it is due to their ED.

I notice you're typing behind a screen as well. Just sayin'...

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@Ky hills you are soooo correct. I started breeding Simmental back in 1970 with Fullblood semen. I had a mix of commercial cows. Anything that was black, potentially had a black calf. Since black gene is dominant, we all had black half bloods, then 3/4's to PB. I have NEVER bred with or to a PB Angus. Other than the original motly commercial cows we started with, I have bred to Fullblood then Purebred Simmental. Have always had black (or back in the day - diluted black) cattle. I never bred to a black Simmental bull until I used an embryo bull I raised (my avatar).
CAB was a great boost for BEEF. It was perfect timing, with Japan paying premiums for black hided cattle and the CAB program, black cattle became super popular.
Cornell Univ used to have a feedlot program. All my black hided steers qualified for CAB. I repeat - ALL qualified. Angus don't all qualify. They all qualify live requirments, but have a hard time passing the carcass requirements. Partly why breeders are chasing carcass NUMBERS. They have always required the live animal to be BEEF type, no dairy cross.
And also, for the record, research has proven that a 1600# cow does NOT eat twice as much as an 800# cow.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Ky hills you are soooo correct. I started breeding Simmental back in 1970 with Fullblood semen. I had a mix of commercial cows. Anything that was black, potentially had a black calf. Since black gene is dominant, we all had black half bloods, then 3/4's to PB. I have NEVER bred with or to a PB Angus. Other than the original motly commercial cows we started with, I have bred to Fullblood then Purebred Simmental. Have always had black (or back in the day - diluted black) cattle. I never bred to a black Simmental bull until I used an embryo bull I raised (my avatar).
CAB was a great boost for BEEF. It was perfect timing, with Japan paying premiums for black hided cattle and the CAB program, black cattle became super popular.
Cornell Univ used to have a feedlot program. All my black hided steers qualified for CAB. I repeat - ALL qualified. Angus don't all qualify. They all qualify live requirments, but have a hard time passing the carcass requirements. Partly why breeders are chasing carcass NUMBERS. They have always required the live animal to be BEEF type, no dairy cross.
And also, for the record, research has proven that a 1600# cow does NOT eat twice as much as an 800# cow.

While I have no doubt all your black steers qualify for CAB, not all black Simmental do. And while you are correct that not ALL Angus qualify there are people who raise Angus or Angus crosses, that all of theirs do qualify.

What is difference in Full Blood and Pure Bred,.,just curious?

 

[Dave]

That all good and well if your plan is to go into the same business as he is.
You will never be able to out bid him or buy better then him , because your pockets aren't as deep.
As I have said before I could care less what type of cattle make the next guy the most money. My interest is in the cattle I raise making a profit for me.
over the last 40 plus years I have watched one of the biggest ranchers in my area. He didn't start out very big ,but over the years he has been able to successfully increase the number of cattle he raises and the number of acres he owns.
how has he succeeded when many others have failed or sold out.
It is the exact opposite of what you suggest.
When everyone else is buying he is selling. When everyone else is selling he is buying.
When cattle prices were extremely high he sold over 50 percent of his herd. When prices crashed he rebuilt his herd with higher quality cattle than when he reduced his herd size , at a fraction of the cost .
He went from an average size herd to one of the largest and continues to grow not just short term success but success for the long haul.

I don't try to out bid him. I am not in the market buying the same cattle he is buying. What I do is learn by watching him. What he buys and doesn't buy. And figure out why he does what he does.

 

[Dave]

A lot of people will hate to hear it, but with a small to mid sized herd square bales are vastly more efficient.

Here they will cost you $50-$60 a ton more if you are buying hay. Putting up hay yourself? Because you enjoy manual labor? I feed 3x4x8 big squares. Pretty easy to limit feed how much you want to give them. I have fed round bales by setting them on edge and using a pitch fork to unroll the hay pitching into a feed bunk. You don't have to unroll an entire bale at one time.

 

[Davemk]

WARREN... Buddy... of course they are getting docked.

You said it yourself. "They brought $1.68 because that what the best, top quality steers in that weight class brought. So did the blacks, only the buyers paid a $.30 PREMIUM for the black calves, figuring they would get CAB status... "

Do you honestly believe that the cuts selected for CAB are all from black hided cattle? You think some guy is marking the carcass as the hide comes off so that only black hided cattle go through all the different processing until a cut of meat ends up on a styrofoam tray wrapped in cellophane with a CAB label on it?

People are being cheated because it's in the interest of those doing the buying. They buy black cattle for market prices and ding everyone else that $0.30 a pound because they can. It's pure market manipulation keeping the price of what they acquire down so they get a bump in value from the non-black cattle they process.

If I was feeding and processing cattle, and I was honest, I'd avoid black hides like the plague and buy everything I could for $0.30 less a pound. But because it works in a buyers favor to pay CAB prices and then discount everything else the buyers at the sale barns are manipulated into paying lower prices.

Again... if someone did DNA tests on packages of meat in the stores with CAB labels, I'd bet the farm that there would be every breed

 

[mwj]

This shows that you have no idea what the specs for CAB cattle on the hook is.When the program started it was to promote Angus bulls, but it has changed over the years. How many Angus labels do you see in the meat case that are not CAB? I see a lot of them and often wonder if people lump them all together?CAB specs give the consumer a much better chance at buying a good quality beef and that is good for the whole industry.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Fullblood Simmental are at least 5 generations of cattle that go back to the Fullbloods from Europe. Purebreds are upgraded here in US to at least a 7/8%. When you have been breeding PB for as long as I have, you will be hard pressed to find DNA of other breed in most of my cows.
The reason ASA started requiring 5 generations back is because "some" of the imported "Fullbloods" were from Europe, but were % cattle. So, they started checking the bloodlines closer - thus the requirement of 5 generations of FULLBLOODS. I have not bred to Fullblood bulls for many decades. We breeders in US have developed the breed into what fits for our environment. I started with those hard calving, pallot headed, big shouldered fullbloods. We have developed a PB Simmental that is easier calving than the Hereford breed - (fact from MARC research) and equal to Angus within a small %. Don't want to quote because I don't remember the %.
Also, see the research info below if you want to talk about crossbreds:

*SimAngusTM-sired steer calves sold through Superior Livestock Auction in summer 2020 earned more at sale time than all other calves. It's no wonder the percentage of SimAngusTM calves marketed through the industry's largest video auction has grown eightfold since 2010."

(*For lots of 50 head or more. Kansas State University, December 2020, Superior Livestock Auction data analysis of 3,280 lots, 394,900 head of beef calves marketed during summer 2020. (P<.0001))

 

[Travlr]

CAB specs give the consumer a much better chance at buying a good quality beef and that is good for the whole industry.

Please explain how the CAB specs are good for the whole industry.

Please use the reply so I don't miss your post.

 

[Silver]

I use some FB Simmental bulls. The Simmental breed has proven that they are just as capable as the Angus breed at improving traits from within, despite what some may say. I also use crossbred bulls (registered, 3/4 to 31/32) and they can be fine as well. I don't see that the crossbred bulls are necessarily any better than a FB. JMO

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

SimAngus bulls are very popular, but for the best hybred vigor, you are better with SimAngus cows and a Charolais or Hereford bull. Crossbred COWS work best with a PB or FB bull. If I ever went commercial, I would have a herd of SimAngus cows and trade off PB Simmental and Angus bulls. I know some REALLY good Angus breeders that don't chase numbers. LOL

 

[Silver]

If hybrid vigor is the goal then a Blonde bull on Simmental cows is pretty hard to beat. I'm not terribly interested in hybrid vigour per se, I feel great cattle produce great cattle, and making great females is where it begins.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@Silver - Ken and I had always made the above statement of a commercial herd - but, I would be hard pressed to come up with better calves than what I have now. Crossbreeding "should" give me better calves - especially on the kind of cow I raise.

 

[Warren Allison]

Fullblood Simmental are at least 5 generations of cattle that go back to the Fullbloods from Europe. Purebreds are upgraded here in US to at least a 7/8%. When you have been breeding PB for as long as I have, you will be hard pressed to find DNA of other breed in most of my cows.
The reason ASA started requiring 5 generations back is because "some" of the imported "Fullbloods" were from Europe, but were % cattle. So, they started checking the bloodlines closer - thus the requirement of 5 generations of FULLBLOODS. I have not bred to Fullblood bulls for many decades. We breeders in US have developed the breed into what fits for our environment. I started with those hard calving, pallot headed, big shouldered fullbloods. We have developed a PB Simmental that is easier calving than the Hereford breed - (fact from MARC research) and equal to Angus within a small %. Don't want to quote because I don't remember the %.
Also, see the research info below if you want to talk about crossbreds:

*SimAngusTM-sired steer calves sold through Superior Livestock Auction in summer 2020 earned more at sale time than all other calves. It's no wonder the percentage of SimAngusTM calves marketed through the industry's largest video auction has grown eightfold since 2010."

(*For lots of 50 head or more. Kansas State University, December 2020, Superior Livestock Auction data analysis of 3,280 lots, 394,900 head of beef calves marketed during summer 2020. (P<.0001))

Fullbloods go back to the Europeans....you mean the original Simms we used to have...the red & white? These are also called Fleckveihs, correct? PB will be at least 7/8ths Simmental, and the FB are 100%? The ones called SImm Angus, are they PB? Or is that a separate registry? Can black Simm be registerd in both? The original ones..the Flechviehs..is that a separate registry, or are they still considered Simmental? Sorry about all the questions, just trying to figure it all out.

 

[Warren Allison]

Fullbloods go back to the Europeans....you mean the original Simms we used to have...the red & white? These are also called Fleckveihs, correct? PB will be at least 7/8ths Simmental, and the FB are 100%? The ones called SImm Angus, are they PB? Or is that a separate registry? Can black Simm be registerd in both? The original ones..the Flechviehs..is that a separate registry, or are they still considered Simmental? Sorry about all the questions, just trying to figure it all out.

Edited to add. Actually, I always liked the original Simm COWS from the 70's when we first got them down here. Same with Charolais COWS. When I was in high school and they first had commercial classes in the fairs, the cross that won about everytime was Simm X Chars. They looked like yellow and white Smmental rather than red & white. My little brother showed in FFA his whole four years and this is what he showed. After show season each year, he'd turn them loose in my granddaddy's Angus herd, and they were calf raising machines. These calves all looked like black baldies, too. I don't ever remember one being smoky or brown. etc.

What I grew to hate with a passion..after a couple of years of every neighbor around calling me to come pull the calves their Angus and Hereford were trying to birth, was Simm and Char, BULLS. About half the time you couldn't get a live calf out..you had to cut them up to get them out. And even if you did get to pull a live calve, a lot of times you ended up losing the cow anyway.