Let's Bicker

[Bright Raven]

It's called binomial for a reason.

Yep. Binomial nomenclature was fundamental to biology until the molecular age. My son who his PhD in molecular biology, cancer cell study, says they pay little attention to taxonomy today. They are doing everything at the molecular level.

YES. I used the following reference:

Wilson, D.E.; Reeder, D.M., eds. (2005). "Bos taurus". Mammal Species of the World: A Taxonomic and Geographic Reference (3rd ed.). Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 978-0-8018-8221-0. OCLC 62265494

Excerpt:

Cattle were originally identified as three separate species: Bos taurus, the European or "taurine" cattle (including similar types from Africa and Asia); Bos indicus, the zebu; and the extinct Bos primigenius, the aurochs. The aurochs is ancestral to both zebu and taurine cattle. These have been reclassified as one species, Bos taurus, with three subspecies: Bos taurus primigenius, Bos taurus indicus, and Bos taurus taurus.

Edited to add: The animal science folks are probably unaware of the change ( not intended to be an insult because they don't deal in the pure biological sciences) but because of that most animal science folks are going to follow the preclassification taxonomy.

Unless it's adopted as a standard usage by everyone it's just one man's book.

In Zoology, it is the standard. It has been adopted by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature.

If you read my post, (check what I underlined) I mentioned that Animal Science is not using the term.

John, pure Biological Science has a stuffy relationship with Animal Science. In Universities the Biological Sciences at one time looked down their noses at the Animal Sciences.

 

[JWBrahman]

Lol, academia suffers from turf battles and specializations that don't translate into real world experience.

The reason my F1 Brangus grow faster than a Bos taurus is the dissimilar alleles. If Bos indicus was just a sub species of Bos taurus we would never get the improved health, vigor, and longevity from that breeding.

I do agree that medical doctors suffer from an unfounded arrogance and plain ole know-it-allisms. Of course all cattle are pretty similar. They can breed to each other without producing sterile offspring. They have the same numbers of chromosomal pairs. That doesn't mean that they are all taurus.

Anyway, interesting topic. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Bright Raven]

Lol, academia suffers from turf battles and specializations that don't translate into real world experience.

The reason my F1 Brangus grow faster than a Bos taurus is the dissimilar alleles. If Bos indicus was just a sub species of Bos taurus we would never get the improved health, vigor, and longevity from that breeding.

I do agree that medical doctors suffer from an unfounded arrogance and plain ole know-it-allisms. Of course all cattle are pretty similar. They can breed to each other without producing sterile offspring. They have the same numbers of chromosomal pairs. That doesn't mean that they are all taurus.

Anyway, interesting topic. Thanks for sharing.

John,

The sciences are colorful. There were two vertebrate paleontologists who literally had a fist fight at a convention over the naming of new fossil species.

BTW: I didn't know your emphasis was in plant science. You know this but the binomial nomenclature between animals and plants is a little different. Carl von Linnaeus set the ground work for the system but things have changed:

The application of binomial nomenclature is now governed by various internationally agreed codes of rules, of which the two most important are the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN) for animals and the International Code of Nomenclature for algae, fungi, and plants (ICN). Although the general principles underlying binomial nomenclature are common to these two codes, there are some differences, both in the terminology they use and in their precise rules.

 

[cowgirl8]

I, personally, LOVED all the color patterns. It was like opening Christmas presents, every time a calf was born. Is it a heifer or a bull, is it red or black, does it have spots or not, does it have a white face or not, is it horned or polled? (most of those things still make finding a newborn exciting!!!).

Exactly....It was like finding that special easter egg when a new sim calf was born.. Really miss all the colorfully marked calves. Our large herd of sim angus cows had a 99% black calf crop. I had one red w/f.. We did though add some black Hereford in another herd and got a lot of white faces. We'll keep all the best heifers in that pasture to add some white faces to our future cows.
We were driving around looking at our cows, putting out mineral yesterday. One thing I realized is, the past 10 years of mixing in angus, we've greatly improved our cows udders. Once upon a time, it was a deal for me. Big stupid sim calves and low giant udders....I called it. BCLU syndrome...Its now just a distant memory. Selection and breeding, we have hundreds of perfect udders we didn't have in the 90s...

 

[Bright Raven]

I, personally, LOVED all the color patterns. It was like opening Christmas presents, every time a calf was born. Is it a heifer or a bull, is it red or black, does it have spots or not, does it have a white face or not, is it horned or polled? (most of those things still make finding a newborn exciting!!!).

Exactly....It was like finding that special easter egg when a new sim calf was born.. Really miss all the colorfully marked calves. Our large herd of sim angus cows had a 99% black calf crop. I had one red w/f.. We did though add some black Hereford in another herd and got a lot of white faces. We'll keep all the best heifers in that pasture to add some white faces to our future cows.
We were driving around looking at our cows, putting out mineral yesterday. One thing I realized is, the past 10 years of mixing in angus, we've greatly improved our cows udders. Once upon a time, it was a deal for me. Big stupid sim calves and low giant udders....I called it. BCLU syndrome...Its now just a distant memory. Selection and breeding, we have hundreds of perfect udders we didn't have in the 90s...

A great cow otherwise, actually great pedigree (she is a Hudson Pine/Rocking P) has one of those low slung udders. Halfblood

 

[Bright Raven]

Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;

Hi Andy. I will take that calf! Beautiful

 

[Muddy]

Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;

Are they available in United States?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;

Hi Andy. I will take that calf! Beautiful

Neat calf, thumbs up!

 

[andybob]

Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;

Are they available in United States?

No Nguni in the USA but some serious interest in importing some, the Mashona is closely related, but only solid coloured Mashona were imported, the Nguni have no solid herds at present, and few polled;

 

[Muddy]

Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;

Are they available in United States?

No Nguni in the USA but some serious interest in importing some, the Mashona is closely related, but only solid coloured Mashona were imported, the Nguni have no solid herds at present, and few polled;

What sanga breeds do we have in United States, beside Watusi and Mashona?

 

[andybob]

To add to the origins of cattle breeds, while the long horned taurus entered Africa from the middle east via Egypt, and Indicus cattle were introduced from India about 2000 years ago,there is now evidence that there was a separate domestication in what is now Tanzania, possibly the ancestors of the Sanga breeds, the three genotypes and the various composites developed over thousands of years in highly challenging environments have contributed a wide base of untapped genetic material yet to be discovered for commercial breeding; http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... attle.html

 

[andybob]

Muddy, pure breeds are the Tuli, Mashona and Watusi, composites are the Senepol, Bonsmara and Barzona, assuming we consider the Afrikana a Sanga breed, as they are Zebu influenced and not pure Taurus Africanus.

 

[Bright Raven]

Andybob.

I saw a lot of nice cattle in the Lowveld. What were down there in the 90s?

 

[andybob]

Andybob.

I saw a lot of nice cattle in the Lowveld. What were down there in the 90s?

South Africa or Zimbabwe? Afrikana are still the basis of most herds, other than the breeds you are familiar with, Drakensburger, Tuli, Nkoni/Nguni, Bonsmara are and would have been then quite common throughout the lowveld.

 

[Bright Raven]

Andybob.

I saw a lot of nice cattle in the Lowveld. What were down there in the 90s?

South Africa or Zimbabwe? Afrikana are still the basis of most herds, other than the breeds you are familiar with, Drakensburger, Tuli, Nkoni/Nguni, Bonsmara are and would have been then quite common throughout the lowveld.

Zimbabwe.

 

[Muddy]

Muddy, pure breeds are the Tuli, Mashona and Watusi, composites are the Senepol, Bonsmara and Barzona, assuming we consider the Afrikana a Sanga breed, as they are Zebu influenced and not pure Taurus Africanus.

We have Afrikana in United States? I don't know that.

 

[Farm Fence Solutions]

Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;

Neat looking calf. I was surprised to see several herds of polled shorthorns on my last trip to the U.K. I know that's where the breed comes from, but more than half of the cattle I saw appeared to be shorthorns. They are definitely easier on the eyes than a solid colored calf.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Although I loved the colorful patterns, I prefer the modern Simmental created by American breeders. We have made more advancement in our breed than most.
As I said, the Angus has changed just as much as the Simmental - other than color. So why isn't CG8 bashing the Angus for changing so much???
Chasing a color or pattern (white faces) is a poor selection criteria. I never bred to a black Simmental bull for many, many years. Just because they were black, did not make them quality bulls. I waited until there were black bulls better than my cows.

 

[Bright Raven]

Although I loved the colorful patterns, I prefer the modern Simmental created by American breeders. We have made more advancement in our breed than most.
As I said, the Angus has changed just as much as the Simmental - other than color. So why isn't CG8 bashing the Angus for changing so much???
Chasing a color or pattern (white faces) is a poor selection criteria. I never bred to a black Simmental bull for many, many years. Just because they were black, did not make them quality bulls. I waited until there were black bulls better than my cows.

Good explanation. There are often comments on this forum that mispresent the breeding history of the American Simmental breed. American Simmental Breeders were not just "chasing the black color", they had other objectives in the plan to improve the American Simmental. TT made the comment that he likes the old world Simmentals, I doubt many American Simmental Breeders would want to go backwards. Thanks for your explanation.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

You are welcome. I am extremely proud of the "modern" Simmental.
I tell everyone, "I don't care if my cow is red, black, or purple polka-dotted, just so it is GOOD"