sporder":3rkvc1f8 said:
http://www.traditionalherefords.org/members/4565836803
Pretty good "club" going here.
KEEP OR CULL HEREFORD BULLS
- Thread starter sporder
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http://www.traditionalherefords.org/members/4565836803
Pretty good "club" going here.
sporder
Well-known member
bull #2 has better nuts than #1 and they both look better after the bulls have been sat down obviously because they are warmer. saying that its not that cold at the moment. below is #1 just after he has been sat down. As the old boy next door said 'I bet he would still do some damage with them'.
TexasBred":2iu4fo1x said:
Include Scrotal Circumference In Your Bull Selection
published: January 26th 2009
by: Dr. Glen Selk
source: Oklahoma State University Extension
Scrotal circumference is a trait that commercial cow calf operators should include in their bull selection criteria. Studies conducted by Cates in 1975 on 1944 bulls indicated that the probability of the beef bull having satisfactory semen quality increased greatly as scrotal circumference increased from 30 to 38 cm.
Scrotal circumference is highly correlated to total sperm output and moderately correlated to normal sperm morphology. Bulls with larger testes will produce more normal sperm cells. Testes size (and scrotal circumference) has a very high heritability estimate (.68). This means it is an easy trait to select for and rapid progress can be made in selecting bulls that will produce more normal sperm cells. Selecting bulls with large testes also has a fortuitous spin-off in improving female fertility. Work at Colorado State University has shown that female relatives of bulls with larger testes reach puberty at a younger age. Through selecting bulls for testes size as well as growth traits, Colorado State has reduced the age of puberty whereby 80% of the heifers reach puberty by 10-12 months of age and nearly 100% by breeding age at 14-15 months. There is a positive relationship between scrotal circumference and yearling weights so growth traits are not compromised when selecting for both fertility and growth rate. The table below illustrates the minimum scrotal circumference (SC) that will allow a bull to pass a breeding soundness exam. However, bull buyers should not be anxious to accept the minimum, but rather select bulls that are average or above average for the breed and the age of the bull. Therefore the "Good" column of the following table is a better guideline for bull selection.
Recommended Scrotal Circumference
Age Minimum SC (cm) Good
< 15 months 30 >34
15 - 18 months 31 >36
18 - 21 months 32 >37
21 - 24 months 33 >38
> 24 months 34 >39
There is great variation in scrotal circumference between breeds of bulls. Measurement of thousands of English and European bulls have shown that yearling bulls should have scrotal circumference of at least 30 cm and by 20 months of age have a scrotal circumference of at least 32 cm. Brahman breed bulls will have smaller testes at the younger ages and they will reach maturity at an older age. The Brahman breed bulls will have adult scrotal circumferences similar to other beef breeds.
AllForage":z2i06zgu said:
Bigger the scrotal size usually the better quality of semen. JW posted a good research article there about that too I see. No you don't need huge nuts but 32 at 20-22 months of age is on the smaller size. In comparison, our yearling sale bulls last year measured 33.7cm, 36.6, and 34.9 at just over 12 months of age at their BSE exam at the vet clinic - all 3 passed easily with high sperm counts and freezing ability. You are fooling yourself if you don't think bull buyers care about scrotal size. One of the best quotes I've heard is a guy once told me a bull has to have "nuts, guts, and butts."
I'm not trying to tear down this guy's bulls, if you come on these boards and ask for opinions you aren't going to get all positive feedback. I didn't say send them off to slaughter, all I pointed out is I would like to see better scrotal size on them and 1 had a better topline than the other. It's an honest opinion, I do like the thickness and depth of rib in them. I wouldn't be out of line to point out if a bull had poor back legs but by your theory of "not all lines or cattle need giant nuts to get the job done" then if he has 4 legs who cares how he moves around he can still get the job done right?
sporder
Well-known member
here is the worse case. also a couple of other pics
sporder
Well-known member
I appreciate all the replys good/bad and too be honest expected to be torn apart a bit more. I had made my mind up to cull both, #1 because of his scrotal size and #2 because of topline and not ideal feet so posted pics to get others opinions. what i lack is experience in how they will grow out. I went to school with some modest looking girls who turned out to be stunning (sorry not being sexist just didn t pay much attention to the boys). do i give them a couple more months?
You could keep the first bull and see if the SC improves in a couple of months since that is his only shortcoming. #2 should be a no brainer for culling. Poor feet and back are traits you don't want to emulate in your heard. If I were to keep #1 I would look to breed him to a cow/cows who matured early. Their (the cows) genetics could improve the SC of the bull offspring and then you might produce a really nice bull.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Sporder-
I will use the same rhetoric that I use whenever anyone requests my opinions on cattle: it depends on your goals, the genetics of the bulls and the genetics of the females to whom they will be mated. The opinions expressed here by other CT posters are obtained from pictures, and are objective and not genetically detailed! One should NEVER select a bull solely on the basis of a photograph.
Both bulls are excellent phenotype, but you stated that they have different sires. That throws an entirely different monkey wrench into your COW HERD genetics for the resulting progeny! In order for you to have a vague estimate of \what your progeny will manifest genetically, you have to balance the genetics of one bull against the cows' genetics, the other bull against the cows' genetics, and then the genetics of both bulls against each other. THEN you have a picture of what the progeny will be, whether they will go to slaughter or will be retained as replacement heifers. Anyone who states that they would use one or the other bull in their herd without analyzing their herd genetics doesn't know what they are talking about as far as what to expect in the genetic performance of the next years calf crop - -except to be able to say " - - I got a pretty good calf crop this time!" and that doesn't tell anybody anything! They are practicing "Cow-Freshening" beef production.
Of course, YOU must have a definite goal and purpose in your protocol regimen before you can make up your mind subjectively as to which bull will justify your retaining him for your future progress in your herd development. His genetic influence will last for years and years after he is no longer siring calves in your herd.
DOC HARRIS
I will use the same rhetoric that I use whenever anyone requests my opinions on cattle: it depends on your goals, the genetics of the bulls and the genetics of the females to whom they will be mated. The opinions expressed here by other CT posters are obtained from pictures, and are objective and not genetically detailed! One should NEVER select a bull solely on the basis of a photograph.
Both bulls are excellent phenotype, but you stated that they have different sires. That throws an entirely different monkey wrench into your COW HERD genetics for the resulting progeny! In order for you to have a vague estimate of \what your progeny will manifest genetically, you have to balance the genetics of one bull against the cows' genetics, the other bull against the cows' genetics, and then the genetics of both bulls against each other. THEN you have a picture of what the progeny will be, whether they will go to slaughter or will be retained as replacement heifers. Anyone who states that they would use one or the other bull in their herd without analyzing their herd genetics doesn't know what they are talking about as far as what to expect in the genetic performance of the next years calf crop - -except to be able to say " - - I got a pretty good calf crop this time!" and that doesn't tell anybody anything! They are practicing "Cow-Freshening" beef production.
Of course, YOU must have a definite goal and purpose in your protocol regimen before you can make up your mind subjectively as to which bull will justify your retaining him for your future progress in your herd development. His genetic influence will last for years and years after he is no longer siring calves in your herd.
DOC HARRIS
sporder
Well-known member
DOC HARRIS. Thanks for your reply which make sense. I never intended to keep either bulls to use in my herd so i have therefore sort of answered the question i first posted. my theory is i should never sell a breeding bull i would not consider for use in my own herd therefore they should be culls. Thanks all
sporder":33cw8pt3 said:
Sporder, that is a great attitude to have and your customers will repay your diligence. For what it is worth the bulls are not as bad as many on this site and they would probably work out fine for a small hobby operation with a handful of black cows.
I posted the article in response to TB's 2 word reply that probably wasn't that helpful. It helps to know why and what people consider a cull.
I think Doc missed the part where you mentioned you were trying to build a reputable seedstock operation. If it is your reputation and your future in the breed is at stake only register and sell your best. You will never regret it. Selling one you are not behind 1000% tends to be something everyone regrets at some point.
Edit- Just returned from checking cattle. My cousin dropped off the 3 Charolais bulls a few days ago. This is the group that showed up last year knotted with muscle, a BCS of 6-7, and very small testicles. All of the old guys around here said the bulls were implanted with steroids to get in that condition. Well, regardless of how the testicles ended up small they are still small and the bulls are showing zero interest in the cows. No libido whatsoever. The Hereford with a big scrotum is chasing them everywhere and the Charolais are fighting with each other when they are not eating.
TexasBred
Well-known member
JWBrahman":1bppql0o said:
Actually it was a three word reply. ;-) But, it was one of the two replies he was looking for. Nothing more, nothing less. He never asked "why".
sporder
Well-known member
just for the sake of it i will post pics of the sires of the two bulls.
sire bull #1
sire bull #2
sire bull #1
sire bull #2
HDRider
Well-known member
Some of us are from down south.Lazy M":1t8z5aav said:
I said I liked them early on. Still do.
HDRider
Well-known member
And I disagree with that. That bull might fit my needs, but I would pay less foro it than a superior bull.sporder":1nofyj4i said:
I'd be happy. The bull would be happy. You should be happy.
Taurus
Well-known member
Completely agreed with you. I would be more concerned about their small scrotal size. They might work okay on a small herd but that's it. There's always a slaughter option available tho.3waycross":1djdlsay said:
