Is fertilizing even needed?

[Banjo]

Would some agree that if I never fertilize, this could be a possibility:

The standing hay could look good. I could cut and roll it, and cows would eat it as usual. The cows could look good throughout the winter, yet the hay could be low in nutrients, and things might not be as well as they appear?

Don't confuse not ever fertilizing, with not building up the soil.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I'm sure it isn't as thick and won't yield as much as it would had it been handled with care the last few years, but it's not bad. The thing is, it produces more than enough hay, as is, for our 18 cows. A neighboring farmer said that due to it supplying enough and it being grassy, he wouldn't do anything to it.

Depends on your goals and the soil test and the OM level and the time of year and the cost comparison bet. of running more ground with less inputs vs. less ground with more inputs...

Best analysis I have seen showed that in Missouri a couple years ago you could afford to fertilize for the most limiting nutrient, but not for several.

With hay being high priced now - - I expect anyone with rain should be fertilizing more than in the past. I hit everything I could drive over with 40# N, 25# S, and 1# Boron early. Some got K or lime also.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

What is this fertilizer stuff you are asking about?

 

[TexasBred]

What is this fertilizer stuff you are asking about?

It is made up of the very things cattle need to live...nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. You know...

 

[Rowdy]

All I know is about 100lbs of applied Nitrogen will increase the yields of my meadow by close to 300%. I've seen a coastal field fertilized at 200lbs nitrogen- that's over a quarter ton of 40-0-0 per acre- that made over 4 5x6 bales/acre. The grass was almost blue at one point.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

What is this fertilizer stuff you are asking about?

It is made up of the very things cattle need to live...nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. You know...

I may have to try some sometime.

 

[TexasBred]

What is this fertilizer stuff you are asking about?

It is made up of the very things cattle need to live...nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. You know...

I may have to try some sometime.

Never hurts to try new things. Never hurts to have more than one way to do things regardless of what ol' pappy might have said.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

In my case all the old pappy's would have went for the fertilizer, I have just put every possible dollar in to growing the herds forever. But it's to the point I have got to start taking some out, to do things that have got to be done, that I have tried to go without for to long.

 

[Caustic Burno]

In my case all the old pappy's would have went for the fertilizer, I have just put every possible dollar in to growing the herds forever. But it's to the point I have got to start taking some out, to do things that have got to be done, that I have tried to go without for to long.

You have to put back IMO as I am a grass farmer using cattle to monitize grass.
A few of the opportunity girl's pay for fertilizer every year, I think my pasture's speak for themself.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

In my case all the old pappy's would have went for the fertilizer, I have just put every possible dollar in to growing the herds forever. But it's to the point I have got to start taking some out, to do things that have got to be done, that I have tried to go without for to long.

You have to put back IMO as I am a grass farmer using cattle to monitize grass.
A few of the opportunity girl's pay for fertilizer every year, I think my pasture's speak for themself.

I completely agree, I have baled a field for a friend for years, it's a nice 20 acre field, but it has never had lime or fertilizer, and has been cut 1 or 2 times a year for 20 years, and it's now to the point that it's mostly sage grass and only makes about 10 or 15 bales.

 

[Banjo]

I was looking at one of my fields today that I started planned rotational grazing on last year. I will be grazing this field in about 3 weeks. The grass is so tall with Ky31 fescue, orchardgrass, timothy and clover it is a chore to try and walk thru it because it is so thick. If I were to cut it for hay I have no doubt it would make at least 3 to 4, 5x6 rolls/acre. 7th year with no fertilize...longterm production and fertility doesn't come from a bag.

 

[R V]

I guess I type too slow and I lost my experience/story that I had typed out. The short version is that on my farm, lime, phosphorus and potassium do seem to make a positive difference and pencil very well. The nitrogen (applied using the typical single application of triple 17 at 200lbs to the acre in the spring) on the hay fields actually decreased my total hay production for the year (more in the spring, but less that fall and less the next year) compared to not fertilizing. This is based on adjacent 40 acre fields of the same soil types and fertility. I also have needed to apply more lime where nitrogen was used. Now I soil test about every 3-4 years and apply lime, phosphorus and potassium to recommendations, but I have essentially stopped using nitrogen except when planting a stand. I mentioned my experience to several friends/farmers in our area (southwest missouri) and others here have now reported similar results. If there is any interest in how I came to this conclusion, I will try to type it out again later. Just let me know.

Ron

 

[inyati13]

I guess I type too slow and I lost my experience/story that I had typed out. The short version is that on my farm, lime, phosphorus and potassium do seem to make a positive difference and pencil very well. The nitrogen (applied using the typical single application of triple 17 at 200lbs to the acre in the spring) on the hay fields actually decreased my total hay production for the year (more in the spring, but less that fall and less the next year) compared to not fertilizing. This is based on adjacent 40 acre fields of the same soil types and fertility. I also have needed to apply more lime where nitrogen was used. Now I soil test about every 3-4 years and apply lime, phosphorus and potassium to recommendations, but I have essentially stopped using nitrogen except when planting a stand. I mentioned my experience to several friends/farmers in our area (southwest missouri) and others here have now reported similar results. If there is any interest in how I came to this conclusion, I will try to type it out again later. Just let me know.

Ron

Ron, This week, Dr Ray Smith and Dr Tom Keene were at my farm in preparation for a field day discussing the forage on my farm. They were very much in the camp of using fertilizer to get high sustainable yeilds of hay. They recommend annual soil tests which are very cheap and easy to do here with the UK extersion service. But they say the best results are obtained by the application of N in the form of urea. They said P and K promote the length and size of the cell, health of the plant, etc. But the body of research demonstrates that N is the most effective in increasing yield. Lime is also something that is very important here in KY. Even though much of KY has limestone as the parent bedrock for the soil, it is leached out and not available in the quantity to provide the calcium and other micronutrients that plants need. I put lime and P on my hay field and doubled the production for the previous year.

It could be that in your case, there is already adequate N and your soil is natually low in P and K. BTW, my soil does not need any K and most soils in this region don't so it is a waste to use it. The Mayslick feed mill is the hud for fertilizer in my area and they custom mix your fertilizer and put it in a "buggy" you pull to the farm with your pickup and then can spread it with the buggy attached to your pickup or a tractor. Really makes the job a piece of cake.

 

[TexasBred]

I guess I type too slow and I lost my experience/story that I had typed out. The short version is that on my farm, lime, phosphorus and potassium do seem to make a positive difference and pencil very well. The nitrogen (applied using the typical single application of triple 17 at 200lbs to the acre in the spring) on the hay fields actually decreased my total hay production for the year (more in the spring, but less that fall and less the next year) compared to not fertilizing. This is based on adjacent 40 acre fields of the same soil types and fertility. I also have needed to apply more lime where nitrogen was used. Now I soil test about every 3-4 years and apply lime, phosphorus and potassium to recommendations, but I have essentially stopped using nitrogen except when planting a stand. I mentioned my experience to several friends/farmers in our area (southwest missouri) and others here have now reported similar results. If there is any interest in how I came to this conclusion, I will try to type it out again later. Just let me know.

Ron

Do you ever test for the quality of hay you're putting up? Especially fertilized --vs-- non fertilized??

 

[R V]

Inyati, you are the second person to recommned urea in the past week. If you get the chance, please ask the doctors if they have noted or read that there is an increased need of lime with nitrogen use. It may be related to the type of nitrogen, but to be honest, I don't know what form of nitrogen is in triple 17 and that was what I used to use. Now I put down lime, phosphorus and potassium as recommended by soil tests and my cattle production and forage production have both improved. I am trying to improve the legumes in my fields now as well and if I can get adequate production and cut costs, that is what I will continue. If adding urea to certain fields to increase quality and quantity of hay is cost effective, then I may try it on some annual warm season grasses that I am planning to plant to build back up my hay supplies and/or for grazing.

Texasbred, I have not tested any of the hay from the farm yet, but that is a good idea. The only hay tested that I have had tested was hay that I was considering purchasing, but my hay gets fed on the farm. The cows did prefer the fall cut hay, but that is typical for our area.

On a side note, thus far this year has been an anomaly as the quality and quantity of hay are better than expected. Lots of yellow top and more density than expected. My red clovers are down this year. Has anyone else noticed this? I wonder if it is related to the drought?

Ron

 

[tom4018]

I guess I type too slow and I lost my experience/story that I had typed out. The short version is that on my farm, lime, phosphorus and potassium do seem to make a positive difference and pencil very well. The nitrogen (applied using the typical single application of triple 17 at 200lbs to the acre in the spring) on the hay fields actually decreased my total hay production for the year (more in the spring, but less that fall and less the next year) compared to not fertilizing. This is based on adjacent 40 acre fields of the same soil types and fertility. I also have needed to apply more lime where nitrogen was used. Now I soil test about every 3-4 years and apply lime, phosphorus and potassium to recommendations, but I have essentially stopped using nitrogen except when planting a stand. I mentioned my experience to several friends/farmers in our area (southwest missouri) and others here have now reported similar results. If there is any interest in how I came to this conclusion, I will try to type it out again later. Just let me know.

Ron

Ron, This week, Dr Ray Smith and Dr Tom Keene were at my farm in preparation for a field day discussing the forage on my farm. They were very much in the camp of using fertilizer to get high sustainable yeilds of hay. They recommend annual soil tests which are very cheap and easy to do here with the UK extersion service. But they say the best results are obtained by the application of N in the form of urea. They said P and K promote the length and size of the cell, health of the plant, etc. But the body of research demonstrates that N is the most effective in increasing yield. Lime is also something that is very important here in KY. Even though much of KY has limestone as the parent bedrock for the soil, it is leached out and not available in the quantity to provide the calcium and other micronutrients that plants need. I put lime and P on my hay field and doubled the production for the previous year.

It could be that in your case, there is already adequate N and your soil is natually low in P and K. BTW, my soil does not need any K and most soils in this region don't so it is a waste to use it. The Mayslick feed mill is the hud for fertilizer in my area and they custom mix your fertilizer and put it in a "buggy" you pull to the farm with your pickup and then can spread it with the buggy attached to your pickup or a tractor. Really makes the job a piece of cake.

Dr. Smith has a lot of knowledge, spoke with him about my place before. Amazes me at the difference in our area of Ky, my K tests real low. I have spent a lot of money pouring the potash to this place trying to build it up, slow job. My P levels were pretty low also but have got them up some. We have used chicken litter for several years now and really like the results. My ph levels have held pretty good, they say the litter from the egg layer houses help with that. I usually can't get the litter until fall, so we pasture everything in the fall to get some benefit of the litter's nitrogen and apply some urea in the spring on hay fields, so far it has worked good. Usually soil test every other year just to check everything out.

 

[inyati13]

I guess I type too slow and I lost my experience/story that I had typed out. The short version is that on my farm, lime, phosphorus and potassium do seem to make a positive difference and pencil very well. The nitrogen (applied using the typical single application of triple 17 at 200lbs to the acre in the spring) on the hay fields actually decreased my total hay production for the year (more in the spring, but less that fall and less the next year) compared to not fertilizing. This is based on adjacent 40 acre fields of the same soil types and fertility. I also have needed to apply more lime where nitrogen was used. Now I soil test about every 3-4 years and apply lime, phosphorus and potassium to recommendations, but I have essentially stopped using nitrogen except when planting a stand. I mentioned my experience to several friends/farmers in our area (southwest missouri) and others here have now reported similar results. If there is any interest in how I came to this conclusion, I will try to type it out again later. Just let me know.

Ron

Ron, This week, Dr Ray Smith and Dr Tom Keene were at my farm in preparation for a field day discussing the forage on my farm. They were very much in the camp of using fertilizer to get high sustainable yeilds of hay. They recommend annual soil tests which are very cheap and easy to do here with the UK extersion service. But they say the best results are obtained by the application of N in the form of urea. They said P and K promote the length and size of the cell, health of the plant, etc. But the body of research demonstrates that N is the most effective in increasing yield. Lime is also something that is very important here in KY. Even though much of KY has limestone as the parent bedrock for the soil, it is leached out and not available in the quantity to provide the calcium and other micronutrients that plants need. I put lime and P on my hay field and doubled the production for the previous year.

It could be that in your case, there is already adequate N and your soil is natually low in P and K. BTW, my soil does not need any K and most soils in this region don't so it is a waste to use it. The Mayslick feed mill is the hud for fertilizer in my area and they custom mix your fertilizer and put it in a "buggy" you pull to the farm with your pickup and then can spread it with the buggy attached to your pickup or a tractor. Really makes the job a piece of cake.

Dr. Smith has a lot of knowledge, spoke with him about my place before. Amazes me at the difference in our area of Ky, my K tests real low. I have spent a lot of money pouring the potash to this place trying to build it up, slow job. My P levels were pretty low also but have got them up some. We have used chicken litter for several years now and really like the results. My ph levels have held pretty good, they say the litter from the egg layer houses help with that. I usually can't get the litter until fall, so we pasture everything in the fall to get some benefit of the litter's nitrogen and apply some urea in the spring on hay fields, so far it has worked good. Usually soil test every other year just to check everything out.

Tom, what county are you in? I took my first soil samples last year. I was good on N and K but N gives you the growth so I use urea and superphosphate bulk mixed at the Mayslick mill. I still need more crushed limestone.

 

[TexasBred]

Inyati, you are the second person to recommned urea in the past week. If you get the chance, please ask the doctors if they have noted or read that there is an increased need of lime with nitrogen use. It may be related to the type of nitrogen, but to be honest, I don't know what form of nitrogen is in triple 17 and that was what I used to use. Now I put down lime, phosphorus and potassium as recommended by soil tests and my cattle production and forage production have both improved. I am trying to improve the legumes in my fields now as well and if I can get adequate production and cut costs, that is what I will continue. If adding urea to certain fields to increase quality and quantity of hay is cost effective, then I may try it on some annual warm season grasses that I am planning to plant to build back up my hay supplies and/or for grazing.

Texasbred, I have not tested any of the hay from the farm yet, but that is a good idea. The only hay tested that I have had tested was hay that I was considering purchasing, but my hay gets fed on the farm. The cows did prefer the fall cut hay, but that is typical for our area.

On a side note, thus far this year has been an anomaly as the quality and quantity of hay are better than expected. Lots of yellow top and more density than expected. My red clovers are down this year. Has anyone else noticed this? I wonder if it is related to the drought?

Ron

I'm wondering why you used "garden fertilizer" (17-17-17) on pastures??

Inyati...urea IS a nitrogen source.

 

[MikeC]

The only way to know is to do soil test.

Bingo. The protein in grass is directly related to the amount of nitrogen uptake available to the grass. Without a reasonable protein percentage, the acid detergent fiber content will not be beneficial to animals. Nitrogen is leached from the soil by rain, etc.

Believe it or not, poor, low protein hay without another source of protein is almost worse than no hay at all. They eat it, but it's not digestible. You can observe the manure piles to spot low protein intake.

General rule is to replace the Potash and Phosphate in hayground by putting down 50 lbs. for each ton of hay removed.

 

[inyati13]

Inyati, you are the second person to recommned urea in the past week. If you get the chance, please ask the doctors if they have noted or read that there is an increased need of lime with nitrogen use. It may be related to the type of nitrogen, but to be honest, I don't know what form of nitrogen is in triple 17 and that was what I used to use. Now I put down lime, phosphorus and potassium as recommended by soil tests and my cattle production and forage production have both improved. I am trying to improve the legumes in my fields now as well and if I can get adequate production and cut costs, that is what I will continue. If adding urea to certain fields to increase quality and quantity of hay is cost effective, then I may try it on some annual warm season grasses that I am planning to plant to build back up my hay supplies and/or for grazing.

Texasbred, I have not tested any of the hay from the farm yet, but that is a good idea. The only hay tested that I have had tested was hay that I was considering purchasing, but my hay gets fed on the farm. The cows did prefer the fall cut hay, but that is typical for our area.

On a side note, thus far this year has been an anomaly as the quality and quantity of hay are better than expected. Lots of yellow top and more density than expected. My red clovers are down this year. Has anyone else noticed this? I wonder if it is related to the drought?

Ron

I'm wondering why you used "garden fertilizer" (17-17-17) on pastures??

Inyati...urea IS a nitrogen source.

Urea is a nitrogenous compound. I have had organic chemistry! What I don't know is why you pointed it out. I assume something I said above was not clear and you concluded it was an indication I didn't know what urea is. If so, you know now that I just wasn't clear and I do know what urea is. In animal physiology you have to know the nitrogenous compound form of every group of organism. It is a classsic question in biology. Mammals excrete their waste in the form of urea. Reptiles and birds excrete in the form of uric acid. In fact, it is one of the points of evidense that supports the thesis that birds are nothing but glorified reptiles.