I'm on the fence about using a char bull on my red Angus cow

[ANAZAZI]

And a little note to the Big Cheese; HDrider and I may be slightly off topic here but your longhorn cross calves pictures in this discussion are like a dog entering a game of skittles.

read BCs whole statement. You'll find out that some calves are out of Char bull and beef cows. The first one is out of a black beef cow. That calf is what it looks like a cross of RA x Charolais.

So [Red Angus] and [any beef cow] are interchangeable now? I rest my case.

 

[Muddy]

And a little note to the Big Cheese; HDrider and I may be slightly off topic here but your longhorn cross calves pictures in this discussion are like a dog entering a game of skittles.

read BCs whole statement. You'll find out that some calves are out of Char bull and beef cows. The first one is out of a black beef cow. That calf is what it looks like a cross of RA x Charolais.

So [Red Angus] and [any beef cow] are interchangeable now? I rest my case.

You said longhorns but you don't read the part where he has beef cows, mostly Angus cows.

 

[shortybreeder]

So [Red Angus] and [any beef cow] are interchangeable now? I rest my case.

You said longhorns but you don't read the part where he has beef cows, mostly Angus cows.

I didn't see the part where he said Angus? It says solid black cow, which could be a longhorn or corriente. Most of his pictures are longhorn calves, so it's a safer bet than assuming it's an angus.

 

[Muddy]

So [Red Angus] and [any beef cow] are interchangeable now? I rest my case.

You said longhorns but you don't read the part where he has beef cows, mostly Angus cows.

I didn't see the part where he said Angus? It says solid black cow, which could be a longhorn or corriente. Most of his pictures are longhorn calves, so it's a safer bet than assuming it's an angus.

He has Angus cows I know for a fact.

 

[AdamsCreek]

I l really liked crossing a Charolais bull with one of my black heifers. Little guy grew out good. He was mud fat when he went to the sale. Top pic he was 2 days old and bottom pic was right at 4 months. The only thing I don't like is the chance of horns.

 

[shortybreeder]

We have 1 charxhol heifer (don't ask why it happened... It just did...) that I bred to shorthorn (I had extra that I bought really cheap at a fundraiser) and the calf was respectable for its age even though the heifer was the smallest of the heifers to calve, and the calf was 50-75lbs lighter than the angus sired (out of angusxhol heifers) but he brought 0.40/lb more than the black steers. I have had other calves from that package of semen that just didn't carry much performance, but the charX heifer never really had much of an udder so I knew she wasn't producing much milk. I feel like char on the angus heifers would've been a great combo. My :2cents:

 

[Big Cheese]

And a little note to the Big Cheese; HDrider and I may be slightly off topic here but your longhorn cross calves pictures in this discussion are like a dog entering a game of skittles.

read BCs whole statement. You'll find out that some calves are out of Char bull and beef cows. The first one is out of a black beef cow. That calf is what it looks like a cross of RA x Charolais.

So [Red Angus] and [any beef cow] are interchangeable now? I rest my case.

A red Angus is a beef cow. So I don't know what case your resting. Also since when have I called a Corriente a black cow? When people talk about black cows they are normally talking about an Angus cross cow. I know some of y'all don't like my Longhorns but I wasn't even talking about them when I posted I was showing the size of our Charolais calves when they were born. We have about 30 beef cows mixed in with our Longhorns of all different breeds.

 

[bulldurham]

Thank you ANAZAZI. I was not aware of the maternal/terminal considerations or how important they are. It is on my reading list now.

Those considerations are outdated and not applicable. There's more variation within each breed than there is between them.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Thank you ANAZAZI. I was not aware of the maternal/terminal considerations or how important they are. It is on my reading list now.

Those considerations are outdated and not applicable. There's more variation within each breed than there is between them.

They are neither outdated nor inapplicable. The possibility that you can find 10% of one breed being outside of the mean of the other breed does not change the mean. Maternal and terminal are essential concepts, even if some breeds may become less polarized.

 

[shortybreeder]

Thank you ANAZAZI. I was not aware of the maternal/terminal considerations or how important they are. It is on my reading list now.

Those considerations are outdated and not applicable. There's more variation within each breed than there is between them.

They are neither outdated nor inapplicable. The possibility that you can find 10% of one breed being outside of the mean of the other breed does not change the mean. Maternal and terminal are essential concepts, even if some breeds may become less polarized.

Exactly, on a normal curve, you can expect to find 66.7% of subjects within 1 standard deviation, 95% within 2, and then 99.7% within 3 standard deviations. The point is, it is perfectly normal for 4.7% of subjects to be very different from the mean. So yes, you can find some Angus that are just as or more terminal than Charolais, just like you can find Charolais that are more maternal than Angus. Statistically speaking however, unless you specifically seek out those bulls, you have much higher odds of getting a maternal angus and a terminal charolais at any given sale.

 

[Muddy]

Its rare for a person to running an entire herd of straight char cows as commercial cows around here.

 

[bulldurham]

Those considerations are outdated and not applicable. There's more variation within each breed than there is between them.

They are neither outdated nor inapplicable. The possibility that you can find 10% of one breed being outside of the mean of the other breed does not change the mean. Maternal and terminal are essential concepts, even if some breeds may become less polarized.

Exactly, on a normal curve, you can expect to find 66.7% of subjects within 1 standard deviation, 95% within 2, and then 99.7% within 3 standard deviations. The point is, it is perfectly normal for 4.7% of subjects to be very different from the mean. So yes, you can find some Angus that are just as or more terminal than Charolais, just like you can find Charolais that are more maternal than Angus. Statistically speaking however, unless you specifically seek out those bulls, you have much higher odds of getting a maternal angus and a terminal charolais at any given sale.

Based on what? The average Charolais cow is SMALLER than the average Angus cow. This is a verifiable fact yet we still have those who adhere to outdated standards.

 

[HDRider]

I am pretty good at starting fights. :cowboy:

 

[Muddy]

What about post a link where it says that char cows are smaller than average Angus cows

 

[Till-Hill]

http://www.rangebeefcow.com/2011/summar ... wSize.html

Most recent weights I could find quick with google. I know I seen a new one last fall that there was even a bigger spread in British to Continental.

Being a Simmental breeder I have been having to use Angus bulls to increase cow size. I know of one Simmental bull that is a 6.5 frame that I will use at the moment. I know a lot more Angus bulls that are!

 

[Muddy]

Isn't most black simmentals gotten too small?

 

[Till-Hill]

Yes Muddy Simmental cattle have really been moderated in last 15 years. Just in Select Sires book of the 18 bulls Simmental and SimAngus bulls listed with a frame score of them 7 are 6.0-6.4 frame. Of the 9 Herefords 5 are greater than 6. Charolais all 3 are 6 and up so not much of a test there.

67 Angus bulls with frame scores listed 29 are 6.0 and greater with 7 also at 6.5 and higher.

Not scientific I just went thru that one book very quick

 

[wacocowboy]

You can easily find Char bulls with BWs in the low to mid 70s and pretty good calving ease. Camp Cooley had some Char bulls that a lot of people used for heifer bulls said BWs were down in the 60s even heard some 50s. Camp Colley sold out but the bloodlines are still out there.

 

[Big Cheese]

You can easily find Char bulls with BWs in the low to mid 70s and pretty good calving ease. Camp Cooley had some Char bulls that a lot of people used for heifer bulls said BWs were down in the 60s even heard some 50s. Camp Colley sold out but the bloodlines are still out there.

I agree....that's why I was sharing my pictures. Our bulls calves are all low BWs and our beef cows are doing good with them. I think rRandel's herd will benefit greatly by switching to a Charolais bull. Also, his cows are already experienced cows so they should be fine having Charolais calves anyway.

 

[shortybreeder]

Based on what? The average Charolais cow is SMALLER than the average Angus cow. This is a verifiable fact yet we still have those who adhere to outdated standards.

Where did I say they were bigger? And being a terminal sire involves more than just weight.