I have a small farm&I need some help with the fine details

[AntlerHill]

Hi everyone, im new here but ive been doing a lot of studying up on getting some cattle this year. First i would like to mention all my neighbors have cattle (all beef) and the guy who lived in my place before me had cows in the woods (about 10 acres) and he trained horses in two fields one was about 6 acres, and the other 4 and also theres about 1 acre of grass thats not fenced. I dont know what these pastures were when he had the place but now its alfalfa, & some clovers. Anyways from my studying that sounds like fine winter food but i dont know about summer food. My neighbor cuts it and gives me 3 big circle bales for my 2 Llamas and he keeps the rest (About 15) for his animals and also he plows our mile long driveway in the winter. I know a lot of you probably think hes getting a pretty rich deal but we would never use all of that Hay anyways. I was planning on putting some cattle in those pastures but all ive ever heard about is cattle & grass, not hay. Anyways I have to refit most of the whole thing with barb wire. It all ready has regular electric line because we use to have a crazy Arabian horse. My neighbors use 3 lines of barb wire but it sounds like many people are saying at least 4. I dont plan to put any cattle in the woods, as most of the enclosures posts are rotted or broke but i think the trees canopies are so thick they block a lot of the rain. I looked at the barb wire thats still tight back there and its still sharp and hardly a sign of rust, so i may reuse that. Anyway thats my place, but the main thing im having trouble with is the number crunching. Getting a general idea of what i can expect to pay & what i can sell the cattle for. My other neighbor, who shares a border with me is the one whos helping me with a lot of the fencing but he hasnt had cows at his place for awhile so what he paid and sold them for is outdated, the way he did it, and the way i was hoping to do it is, he would buy 4 or 5 cattle in the spring and raise them up on his pastures and then sell them in the fall for meat. He was talking about $200-$150 per head, so im guessing he was talking about Dairy steers maybe? I heard those were quite cheap. The winters here especially bad where we live, we catch a nasty wind thats almost uninhabitable for humans let alone cattle. I have heard animals like this are called Stockers, Feeders, and a number of other things. But it sounds like those kind of animals you buy at 500lb and sell at 900lb it doesnt sound like you can hardly break even on a few of those. If its relevant i live in Minnesota and there are 5 working age people at my house and we all work, very part time but we do all work, so we werent trying to become full time ranchers or anything. So theres the background, the main questions are as follows:

Do i have the right kind of food in my pasture for cows during the summer months?
Can Llamas intermingle with cows without bloodshed? I assume so but i also heard that cattle face off with eachother
What is the kind of animal called that you let graze on pasture and then sell for meat? Is that a better alternative to selling them to a feed lot to get even bigger?
Where can i find the going price for cattle? Is there a average so i can get a rough idea for the midwest price?
How can i get a idea for what i can sell grown cattle for?

Any help you can provide, i will truly appreciate it. Ive been looking into these questions for awhile but most of the sites are outdated and the stock market prices on cows i cant make heads or tails of it. So i wanted to ask the people on the ground level of this industry, Thanks again!

 

[I luv herfrds]

Where are you at? that will help if the people in your region answer your questions.

:welcome: to the board.

 

[AntlerHill]

Hi thanks for the reply, i wrote that in on the end of the first paragraph, i live in Minnesota, the southern end thankfully

 

[2/B or not 2/B]

Welcome to the boards You asked a mouthful of questions, but it's good you want to do you research before getting your cattle. I will try to answer a few of them.

One of my neighbors keeps llamas and cattle in the same pasture, so I don't think that's an issue.

You can learn the most about how much cattle sell for in your area by going to some local auctions, observing closely and taking notes.

All of our fencing is at least 5 strand barb wire, but a lot of it is woven wire/hog wire on the bottom and 2 or 3 strands of barbed wire on top. That's what I prefer. I wouldn't feel that 3 strands was enough, although maybe it would be in combination with electric fencing. In a lot of ways, the strength of your fencing is determined by the disposition of your cattle. I feel it's better to be safe than sorry. Some people make the mistake of starting out without corrals and working gates/chutes/squeezes etc. You didn't mention what type of corrals or working facilities you have, but will you have a way to confine and restrain your cattle when you need to?

You're right that it can be hard to break even on cattle, especially if you're just raising a few. There probably isn't a lot of financial gain for you to make, but if like cattle and are willing to put in a lot of work to care for them right, you could pretty easily buy some healthy weaned calves each year and fatten them on your own grass and hay. You could finish them on some grain or not, and have freezer beef for yourself and a few others. If you can figure the right number to match your resources (I recommend understocking rather than overstocking) you could make that work. But if you're wanting to avoid stockers and buy little calves that were pulled off their moms or weaned early you would need to feed them grain in addition to pasture in order for them to grow much and that's not too cost effective.

I know you asked more than that, but maybe someone else will give you some additional feedback. Heather Smith Thomas is an author who writes really informative books for people at all experience levels of livestock farming. Another book I think you'd really like is Small-Scale Livestock Farming by Carol Ekarius. It goes into a lot of detail about fencing, pastures and feed requirements per animal unit, along with niche marketing and lots of other things.

Good luck

 

[kerley]

:welcome: :cboy:

 

[HEREFORD ROADHOG]

:welcome: It sounds like you have a good place to raise a few cattle.woven fence would be the best with barb on top. I would advise researching the availability of a few feeder calves & also check into the nearest location of a local slaughterhouse. You could graze them in the spring & summer & finish them on grain & hay in the fall & winter. Raise a good fat beef & sell Halves or quarters of beef to people you work with. Once they taste the difference from store bought meat you'll have repeat customers.It's worked for us for 10 plus years now. good luck!

 

[AntlerHill]

Thanks you guys for the replys. I realized after what i wrote it may have been a little confusing but the questions that i lined up on the bottom of my first post was basically suppose to summarize what i was asking. But anyway yeah ive heard there isnt a lot of financial gain, but thats not really my intention. I more wanted some good clean beef and maybe a little extra money to help offset some of the wire we will need to buy.

I guess the main thing im concerned with is the price that i can get the cattle at and the price i can sell it at, i did find the local extension office, which i kept hearing about but couldnt find because if you do a google search for "Extention office" you probably will get something your not looking for if you know what i mean. But im going to call them and see if i can figure out how to get some local prices. I did find this livestock auction site for a place thats 3 hours away from me. heres the link http://www.pipestonelivestock.com/ , any thoughts on the going prices? I assume im looking in the Feeder category of cattle?

Also is the field with all the hay is that a good place to keep cattle or should cattle only be on grass?

Thanks for all your help guys

 

[AntlerHill]

Ok these guys are a little closer to me, http://www.lewistonsales.com/html/weekly_prices.html http://www.lanesborosalescommission.com/html/sale_results.html, can someone help me understand what the 100#-200# and those kind of numbers mean? Is that a grade or a weight? Also what are the definitions listed on these places mean? Holsteins are those black and white milk cows im pretty sure but the rest is a little confusing.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

If you look around on this site you will find countless warnings for beginners to NOT buy from auction barns and the reasons why. I highly recommend you friendly up to a neighbor or other knowledgeable person in the area and trade some help (your labor) for some learning (they teach you, maybe help you buy your first animals).

Running off to the auction barn and buying calves you know nothing about is VERY risky. Doing it when you don't have much experience is a disaster in the making.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Ok these guys are a little closer to me, http://www.lewistonsales.com/html/weekly_prices.html http://www.lanesborosalescommission.com/html/sale_results.html, can someone help me understand what the 100#-200# and those kind of numbers mean? Is that a grade or a weight? Also what are the definitions listed on these places mean? Holsteins are those black and white milk cows im pretty sure but the rest is a little confusing.

the numbers with the # after are wieghts (pound sign - clever huh?) and the other numbers are the range for those weight animals by 100 lbs - so for example the top line is 3 to 400 pound steers and they sold for $118 to 120 per 100 lbs - or $1.18 to 1.20/lb. I don't knwo why they do it by 100s - maybe dun or somebody knows, but that is fairly universal for steers, heifers, and cull animals. For "breeding" animals they generally sell by "the head" or pair if it is a cow and calf together.

edit 'cause I got confused who I was replying to :!:

 

[AntlerHill]

Thanks Hippie Rancher but i do know someone who knows a lot about cattle, so dont worry, by me asking questions on a board of experienced cattle men/woman i thought my intentions were clear of trying to soak up as much knowledge as possible, so that i would be confused with people who wake up in the morning thinking it would be a good idea to raise some cattle and go to sleep at night with a pen of cattle that no one else wanted. But again thanks for the warning and the explanation of those numbers on the site.

I have one more question though, which is, how does the end processwork? I think its clear that you need someone to truck off your cattle but then after that what happens? Do you take them to a auction or somewhere where they turn them into food for the grocery stores or how does that work? And how do you know ahead of time when its a good time to take them away for the most money?

Thanks again guys

 

[MF135]

I have one more question though, which is, how does the end processwork? I think its clear that you need someone to truck off your cattle but then after that what happens? Do you take them to a auction or somewhere where they turn them into food for the grocery stores or how does that work? And how do you know ahead of time when its a good time to take them away for the most money?

Thanks again guys

The "trucking off" is the process of taking your stock to the local livestock auction. The age and condition of the cattle sold will determine its fate immediately following being purchased by a buyer at the auction. Baby calves will be bought by a buyer who plans on profiting in raising bottle calves to a mkt weight. Upon reaching the owner's subjective ideal weight,these raised bottle calves and calves raised in a traditional cow-calf operation alike, will then be sold at a local auction where they will generally be bought by a feed-lot buyer. This buyer buys ~300 to ~800lb "feeder calves" and then ships them to a feedlot where they will stay until reaching a "finishing weight" (depending on breed ~1000 to 1300lbs). After the feedlot the stock is then sold to the packin house. The packer processes the meat and then sells to grocery stores/restaurants. Some larger grocers/restaurants own their own packing facility, feed lot operations, and potentially even the ranch where the calf was initially reared. This vertical integration creates exceptional economies of scale. Older cows/bulls "cutters" bought at the auction will either be directly taken to a packing house or a dog food manufacturer.

Despite some posts I've seen here, there are many exceptional animals being sold at your local livestock auction. Every week I'll see bred cows, pairs, and the occasional young calf(~230lbs) go through the ring and bring far below their market value. Take advantage of these arbitrage opportunities.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Welcome!

Just a few comments:

First one's "County Extension Office" is an arm of one's State Department of Agriculture. Look up County Extension (or similar wording) in your local phone book (or) go to the County Courthouse.

Second, Google the "Department of Agriculture" for your State for more information and agencies (or) the Agricultural division of your State's land grant college or university (State funded institution, not a private church related school).

Third, only VERY experience buyers at a local or area Sale Barn can get a good deal that "should be" healthy. Even they occasionally end up with a dud or one with a latent illness that fails to thrive and/or turns up sick, etc. A newcomer should only buy from an established ranch that you can personally see the animals and their environment: Junky places and/or dirty places may imply a disease or illness harboring place. Any "calf" should be completely weaned (age 6 to 7 months old) and generally under breeding age of 14 to 15 months of age.

Fourth, consult with an established rancher and use him/her as a mentor.

Finally, good luck and lots of success!

 

[AntlerHill]

Thanks for the answers guys, but what is the county extension suppose to be able to tell people? Because i called mine and they didnt seem to know anything about agriculture in any form. I hung up before i could ask the purpose of their office.

Oh and thanks Mf135 but now im curious about something, if we buy a small 350lb cow and get it to say.. 850lbs do we take it to the auction or the meat packer place? Or does the meat packer have people who go to the auctions and buy beef for them to process for grocery stores? Because i contacted what i thought was a processor but their operation only butchers animals for the people who brought them to eat. They dont buy any animals at all from anyone and im having a hard time finding someone in Minnesota who actually distributes the animals they process. But if they have people who buy for them at the auctions then i guess it doesnt matter does it.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Thanks for the answers guys, but what is the county extension suppose to be able to tell people? Because i called mine and they didnt seem to know anything about agriculture in any form. I hung up before i could ask the purpose of their office.

Oh and thanks Mf135 but now im curious about something, if we buy a small 350lb cow and get it to say.. 850lbs do we take it to the auction or the meat packer place? Or does the meat packer have people who go to the auctions and buy beef for them to process for grocery stores? Because i contacted what i thought was a processor but their operation only butchers animals for the people who brought them to eat. They dont buy any animals at all from anyone and im having a hard time finding someone in Minnesota who actually distributes the animals they process. But if they have people who buy for them at the auctions then i guess it doesnt matter does it.

Based on your response about your own County Agent...my "guess" is that you live near or about a larger city. A County Agent in a bonafide rural environment will have local knowledge about agriculture as well as a myriad of publications, handouts, etc. [On a sidebar...it's like getting a "designer pet" Vet to know anything about large animals...] Some County Agents seem to specialize in 4-H, and Home Economics areas and NOT with "real" agriculture: crops, ranching, farming, etc.

JMO and past experiences...

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Regarding processors...

One's "local processor" (aka processing animals for a specific "freezer beef" use) is considered an "end" for a given person.

The slaughter houses and large processors do not buy (might be exceptions) from a local person. They tend to only buy from the "buyers" who have bought semi-loads (full pots) of cattle from Sale Barns and auction houses. Other types buy "ranch to rail" where they buy a semi-load direct from a rancher and take to the slaughter houses (or feedlots).

Selling a single or a few animals for ultimate slaughter is mostly done by the seller taking to a local Sale Barn (or) selling one to someone who wants a single animal for their own freezer beef.