Horned Hereford -vs- Polled Hereford

[alexfarms]

Mrnack Herefords West. Most of them are Monument 3147. I'm looking for two more this year.

I'm not a big believer in the accuracy of Hereford epd's. The Monuments are, generally, high bw epd and below average calving ease. What has been your experience with bw's and calving ease with that line?

 

[cow pollinater]

Mrnack Herefords West. Most of them are Monument 3147. I'm looking for two more this year.

I'm not a big believer in the accuracy of Hereford epd's. The Monuments are, generally, high bw epd and below average calving ease. What has been your experience with bw's and calving ease with that line?

You're dead on but they're on mature cows, almost all of which are angus so there is some help with birthweight there. In three seasons I have yet to see a calf over 90 pounds(by my guess) and the lowest BW EPD in the bunch is +4.2. They are big strong calves but not at all cow killers.

 

[alexfarms]

Mrnack Herefords West. Most of them are Monument 3147. I'm looking for two more this year.

I'm not a big believer in the accuracy of Hereford epd's. The Monuments are, generally, high bw epd and below average calving ease. What has been your experience with bw's and calving ease with that line?

You're dead on but they're on mature cows, almost all of which are angus so there is some help with birthweight there. In three seasons I have yet to see a calf over 90 pounds(by my guess) and the lowest BW EPD in the bunch is +4.2. They are big strong calves but not at all cow killers.

Its unfortunate many good Herefords get shunned because of having a high birthweight epd, when the epds just aren't that accurate.

 

[skeeter swatter]

(figured aaron spent the money on the popcorn may as well make it worth it, plus i got a long boring day in the office. that and just like to rile up polled guys, such a touchy bunch.)[/quote] It shouldn't be an issue if you are breeding horned Hereford bull to polled angus cows or polled angus bull to horned Hereford cows. The F1 offspring should be heterozygous polled. If you wanted replacements, then don't use horned Herefords or at least breed the F1 to another polled breed such as Simmental or Charolais.[/quote]

Be prepared to spend most of the rest of your life fighting the horned gene in the cow herd started by those heterozygous replacements. I have a neighbor who used 3 different registered Angus bulls of mixed cows and he got horns sired by all three of the Angus bulls.[/quote]If you really think you are more likely to get horns using Angus than using Polled Hereford then you are an obvious crack user!

 

[alexfarms]

(figured aaron spent the money on the popcorn may as well make it worth it, plus i got a long boring day in the office. that and just like to rile up polled guys, such a touchy bunch.)

It shouldn't be an issue if you are breeding horned Hereford bull to polled angus cows or polled angus bull to horned Hereford cows. The F1 offspring should be heterozygous polled. If you wanted replacements, then don't use horned Herefords or at least breed the F1 to another polled breed such as Simmental or Charolais.[/quote]

Be prepared to spend most of the rest of your life fighting the horned gene in the cow herd started by those heterozygous replacements. I have a neighbor who used 3 different registered Angus bulls of mixed cows and he got horns sired by all three of the Angus bulls.[/quote]If you really think you are more likely to get horns using Angus than using Polled Hereford then you are an obvious crack user![/quote]

You stated: "If you really think you are more likely to get horns using Angus than using Polled Hereford then you are an obvious crack user!"

If you read through the entire thread, you will learn that NO ONE suggested or stated that anyone would be "more likely to get horns using Angus than using Polled Herefords">

 

[Aaron]

I will. Judging by the number of horned Angus bulls listed on Craigslist, I will estimate that Angus bulls sire horned offspring on average 50% more often than Polled Herefords. This is based on no factual data whatsoever.

 

[alexfarms]

I will. Judging by the number of horned Angus bulls listed on Craigslist, I will estimate that Angus bulls sire horned offspring on average 50% more often than Polled Herefords. This is based on no factual data whatsoever.

One thing polled Hereford breeders do have going for them now is the DNA test to determine homozygous 100% dehorners. The AHA has endorsed the test and if a polled bull has been tested, the result of the DNA test for the presence of the horned gene is printed on the pedigree on the online pedigree search. I think it can go a long way in helping Hereford breeders who want to eliminate the horned gene from their stock.

 

[cow pollinater]

One thing polled Hereford breeders do have going for them now is the DNA test to determine homozygous 100% dehorners. The AHA has endorsed the test and if a polled bull has been tested, the result of the DNA test for the presence of the horned gene is printed on the pedigree on the online pedigree search. I think it can go a long way in helping Hereford breeders who want to eliminate the horned gene from their stock.

That might bite them pretty hard if they're not careful. Choosing cattle on the basis of horn status only is what turned a lot of people off of polled Herefords the first time around. "They bred off the brains and the butts" as my neighbor says... Now that they have bred them back similar to horned bulls it would be a shame to do that again.

 

[alexfarms]

One thing polled Hereford breeders do have going for them now is the DNA test to determine homozygous 100% dehorners. The AHA has endorsed the test and if a polled bull has been tested, the result of the DNA test for the presence of the horned gene is printed on the pedigree on the online pedigree search. I think it can go a long way in helping Hereford breeders who want to eliminate the horned gene from their stock.

That might bite them pretty hard if they're not careful. Choosing cattle on the basis of horn status only is what turned a lot of people off of polled Herefords the first time around. "They bred off the brains and the butts" as my neighbor says... Now that they have bred them back similar to horned bulls it would be a shame to do that again.

Its just one of many traits that people can select for and there is no reason why anyone needs to single trait select, especially when you know which ones are carriers.

 

[Beef Man]

The old commercial cowmen here always refered to the polled breed as" no balls, no butts, no bags"! It was very near the truth and like so many things is hard to live down. Only knew of 1 large herd of polled cattle that run strictly as range cattle. That was another reason that oldtimer's did'nt like the polled breed,needed to much care to survive here. These things are not so true anymore but like I said hard to forget some things.

 

[elkwc]

I was always a horned Hereford person who also appreciated Angus and have always felt that a black baldy was as good as any cross that has been tried. I'm back involved in managing a cow herd after many years of being away from it. I had heard and read about all of the improvement in the polled cattle. I had decided due to the horn issue this time I would try to find a suitable polled bull. So far I've found very few that have adequate muscling in the hindquarters. I had been told that issue had been addressed. The best Hereford bulls I've seen have been Horned. Have found one herd with nice, cake and grass type range cattle that will feed well that most have adequate muscling. I have been very disappointed in the direction many of the polled breeders are going. Have seen some high selling bulls from many of the prominent Polled breeders including the prominent polled breeder in KS. Many of them look like cattle from the 50's and 60's. Overgrown dwarfs. Squatty, compact, bad feet, huge bone, leg issues and narrow at the pins. Most of the good Polled cattle I've found so far have Horned ancestry close up. I saw a nice polled bull driving down a road today in with some Angus bulls. Going to try and find out where he came from. Also have a few more herds to look at. Two of them have raised good horned cattle for years so hopefully I'll find that good polled bull yet. But so far I have to say the overall quality of the polled cattle I've seen doesn't match the quality of the Horned cattle in this area. And I've covered an area 250 miles in length. I have to have a bull that will produce a calf that will do well from the time it hits the ground until it is hanging on the rail and the heifers and cows do well in harsh, drought conditions in a cake and grass situation, wean a nice sized calf and breed back. Short, squatty cattle don't survive here. And from many years being around the feedlot business I know what it takes to feed efficiently and grade well. So in summary in my opinion the reason you still see more horned bulls than polled bulls is the quality being offered.

 

[cloud9cattle]

In my rookie experience ive seen horned hereford bulls that seemed to have more substance. Nutts Gutts And Butts vs polled hereford bulls. If it was me id stick to the purest horned hereford bred bull I could find. Ive always looked past horns and look at the animal.

 

[MikeBo]

I am still chuckling about this quote " by the number of horned angus I see on Craigslist", now that is true empirical research! Some of you may want to read the works of Augastinian friar Mendel, to get a basic understanding of genes, but homozygous cattle don't "throw" horned cattle, in 50 years of raising angus , we have yet to have a "horned" offspring! Some of our Gelbvieh crosses throw an occasional horn.

 

[Aaron]

I am still chuckling about this quote " by the number of horned angus I see on Craigslist", now that is true empirical research! Some of you may want to read the works of Augastinian friar Mendel, to get a basic understanding of genes, but homozygous cattle don't "throw" horned cattle, in 50 years of raising angus , we have yet to have a "horned" offspring! Some of our Gelbvieh crosses throw an occasional horn.

I apologize if you could not read through the sarcasm in that post. I tried to make it as obvious as I could.

 

[alexfarms]

I was always a horned Hereford person who also appreciated Angus and have always felt that a black baldy was as good as any cross that has been tried. I'm back involved in managing a cow herd after many years of being away from it. I had heard and read about all of the improvement in the polled cattle. I had decided due to the horn issue this time I would try to find a suitable polled bull. So far I've found very few that have adequate muscling in the hindquarters. I had been told that issue had been addressed. The best Hereford bulls I've seen have been Horned. Have found one herd with nice, cake and grass type range cattle that will feed well that most have adequate muscling. I have been very disappointed in the direction many of the polled breeders are going. Have seen some high selling bulls from many of the prominent Polled breeders including the prominent polled breeder in KS. Many of them look like cattle from the 50's and 60's. Overgrown dwarfs. Squatty, compact, bad feet, huge bone, leg issues and narrow at the pins. Most of the good Polled cattle I've found so far have Horned ancestry close up. I saw a nice polled bull driving down a road today in with some Angus bulls. Going to try and find out where he came from. Also have a few more herds to look at. Two of them have raised good horned cattle for years so hopefully I'll find that good polled bull yet. But so far I have to say the overall quality of the polled cattle I've seen doesn't match the quality of the Horned cattle in this area. And I've covered an area 250 miles in length. I have to have a bull that will produce a calf that will do well from the time it hits the ground until it is hanging on the rail and the heifers and cows do well in harsh, drought conditions in a cake and grass situation, wean a nice sized calf and breed back. Short, squatty cattle don't survive here. And from many years being around the feedlot business I know what it takes to feed efficiently and grade well. So in summary in my opinion the reason you still see more horned bulls than polled bulls is the quality being offered.

Welcome back to the cow/calf business. I'm sure you'll have some catching up to do.


elkwc said: "I saw a nice polled bull driving down a road today in with some Angus bulls. Going to try and find out where he came from."

Hmmm.

 

[elkwc]

Another factor I've found so far in my search is the few Polled bulls I've found that are comparable in quality to the average good commercial type Horned Hereford or Angus bull I've seen are labeled as herd sires and priced several thousand dollars higher. One of them recently sold for 8 thousand. When I can buy the same quality for several thousand less makes my decision easier. I think the quality has improved some in a small percentage of the polled cattle. When/if the quality level reaches a more equal level on a higher percentage then you will propably see more switching. Until then I feel that either Angus or Horned is the most economical avenue for the average commercial breeder.

 

[BMCC]

[URL=http://s1287.photobucket.com/u.../Youngherefordbull_0117_zps107a4bad.jpg[/img][/url]

The old commercial cowmen here always refered to the polled breed as" no balls, no butts, no bags"! It was very near the truth and like so many things is hard to live down. Only knew of 1 large herd of polled cattle that run strictly as range cattle. That was another reason that oldtimer's did'nt like the polled breed,needed to much care to survive here. These things are not so true anymore but like I said hard to forget some things.

I don't think its so true anymore either, but everyone has different opinions.

 

[alexfarms]

Another factor I've found so far in my search is the few Polled bulls I've found that are comparable in quality to the average good commercial type Horned Hereford or Angus bull I've seen are labeled as herd sires and priced several thousand dollars higher. One of them recently sold for 8 thousand. When I can buy the same quality for several thousand less makes my decision easier. I think the quality has improved some in a small percentage of the polled cattle. When/if the quality level reaches a more equal level on a higher percentage then you will propably see more switching. Until then I feel that either Angus or Horned is the most economical avenue for the average commercial breeder.

Since you've been in the feedlot industry for many years, what changes in feedlots and feedlot management have you seen since 2007 with the relatively high feed costs and low interest rates?

 

[farmguy]

Just a comment or two.
#1 Ever notice the horned breeders always attack the polled breed. Me thinks maybe they protest too much.

#2 A simple observation. Check your AI catalogs. How many polled and how many horned Herefords?

#3 My grandfather used to say that running someone else down never made you 1 inch taller.

 

[Aaron]

Just a comment or two.
#1 Ever notice the horned breeders always attack the polled breed. Me thinks maybe they protest too much.

#2 A simple observation. Check your AI catalogs. How many polled and how many horned Herefords?

#3 My grandfather used to say that running someone else down never made you 1 inch taller.

#1 I don't think I have ever seen a horned breeder go after a polled guy out of the blue. It always starts with a commercial guy asking the same old question, why horned? Why not polled? It's a no different question for me than, why Herefords? Why not Lowlines? or Brangus?. Can we help it if an honest answer is given? I know the answer if the question is reversed, and it plays into a question of competency than actual production reasons.

#2 It's always been that way since the the dawn of AI. If that makes the Polled superior, good for them. I can't recall too much to be excited about in the polled sections of the 1980's semen catalogs.

#3. I have heard the same statement before. I don't think it applies when a person speaks the truth. But then maybe all of us horned guys are just lying to cover up our real problem. We have a horn fetish. That has to be it.