Hobby Lobby in the news.....

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denvermartinfarms":4k6ufy4z said:
With The type of work we do we dont have any female employees, but As a small business owner I certainly like the way this has gone. I would go out of business before supplying insurance to someone that included going against god.

Denver, does supplying (or using) birth control go against God? I don't mean this to be flippant--I'm curious whether you are against all forms of birth control, and what other medications or medical treatments God prohibits, in your view.
 
slick4591":3gp3ed1a said:
chippie":3gp3ed1a said:
I have no problem with a person's religious freedom, but when a company is involved, I believe that this will open doors that may be hard to close.

Would it matter if the U.S. Code read like this?

26 U.S. Code § 7701

1) Person

The term "person" shall be construed to mean and include an individual, a trust, estate, partnership, association, company or corporation.

Would it matter if Title 26 of the USC was the IRS code?
 
Did Nancy Pelosi deliver your copy of the "talking points" personally, or did you have get them from MSNBC?[/quote]

John, I could ask: "Did Rush Limbaugh supply your talking points, or did you get them from the Koch brothers?" Two can play that game. But I'd rather discuss our own actual viewpoints. I responded substantively to those who had posted in favor of the ruling, giving you the courtesy of assuming your viewpoints were your own, not force-fed to you by outsiders. I'd appreciate the same courtesy. Thanks. ;-)
 
boondocks":so3oisdw said:
slick4591":so3oisdw said:
chippie":so3oisdw said:
I have no problem with a person's religious freedom, but when a company is involved, I believe that this will open doors that may be hard to close.

Would it matter if the U.S. Code read like this?

26 U.S. Code § 7701

1) Person

The term "person" shall be construed to mean and include an individual, a trust, estate, partnership, association, company or corporation.

Would it matter if Title 26 of the USC was the IRS code?

Nope. The government defined it, now they don't want to live it.
 
boondocks":27k6hmli said:
denvermartinfarms":27k6hmli said:
With The type of work we do we dont have any female employees, but As a small business owner I certainly like the way this has gone. I would go out of business before supplying insurance to someone that included going against god.

Denver, does supplying (or using) birth control go against God? I don't mean this to be flippant--I'm curious whether you are against all forms of birth control, and what other medications or medical treatments God prohibits, in your view.

A long read but examples of how scripture was interpreted for thousands of years. From a Catholic source but includes many references as well to protestants.


up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church's teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, swayed by growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception.

Evidence that contraception is in conflict with God's laws comes from a variety of sources that will be examined in this tract.



Nature

Contraception is wrong because it's a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.

But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God's gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation.



Scripture

Is contraception a modern invention? Hardly! Birth control has been around for millennia. Scrolls found in Egypt, dating to 1900 B.C., describe ancient methods of birth control that were later practiced in the Roman empire during the apostolic age. Wool that absorbed sperm, poisons that fumigated the uterus, potions, and other methods were used to prevent conception. In some centuries, even condoms were used (though made out of animal skin rather than latex).

The Bible mentions at least one form of contraception specifically and condemns it. Coitus interruptus, was used by Onan to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one's dead brother. "Judah said to Onan, 'Go in to your brother's wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.' But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).

The biblical penalty for not giving your brother's widow children was public humiliation, not death (Deut. 25:7–10). But Onan received death as punishment for his crime. This means his crime was more than simply not fulfilling the duty of a brother-in-law. He lost his life because he violated natural law, as Jewish and Christian commentators have always understood. For this reason, certain forms of contraception have historically been known as "Onanism," after the man who practiced it, just as homosexuality has historically been known as "Sodomy," after the men of Sodom, who practiced that vice (cf. Gen. 19).

Contraception was so far outside the biblical mindset and so obviously wrong that it did not need the frequent condemnations other sins did. Scripture condemns the practice when it mentions it. Once a moral principle has been established in the Bible, every possible application of it need not be mentioned. For example, the general principle that theft is wrong was clearly established in Scripture; but there's no need to provide an exhaustive list of every kind of theft. Similarly, since the principle that contraception is wrong has been established by being condemned when it's mentioned in the Bible, every particular form of contraception does not need to be dealt with in Scripture in order for us to see that it is condemned.



Apostolic Tradition

The biblical teaching that birth control is wrong is found even more explicitly among the Church Fathers, who recognized the biblical and natural law principles underlying the condemnation.

In A.D. 195, Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2).

Hippolytus of Rome wrote in 255 that "on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful [certain Christian women who had affairs with male servants] want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered" (Refutation of All Heresies9:12).

Around 307 Lactantius explained that some "complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife" (Divine Institutes 6:20).

The First Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical council and the one that defined Christ's divinity, declared in 325, "If anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy" (Canon 1).

Augustine wrote in 419, "I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility [oral contraceptives]" (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17).

The apostolic tradition's condemnation of contraception is so great that it was followed by Protestants until 1930 and was upheld by all key Protestant Reformers. Martin Luther said, "[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him."

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

John Wesley warned, "Those sins that dishonor the body are very displeasing to God, and the evidence of vile affections. Observe, the thing which he [Onan] did displeased the Lord—and it is to be feared; thousands, especially of single persons, by this very thing, still displease the Lord, and destroy their own souls." (These passages are quoted in Charles D. Provan, The Bible and Birth Control, which contains many quotes by historic Protestant figures who recognize contraception's evils.)
 
boondocks":17z2f1un said:
Did Nancy Pelosi deliver your copy of the "talking points" personally, or did you have get them from MSNBC?

John, I could ask: "Did Rush Limbaugh supply your talking points, or did you get them from the Koch brothers?" Two can play that game. But I'd rather discuss our own actual viewpoints. I responded substantively to those who had posted in favor of the ruling, giving you the courtesy of assuming your viewpoints were your own, not force-fed to you by outsiders. I'd appreciate the same courtesy. Thanks. ;-)[/quote]

The tip off was that you put" FOR PROFIT" and "CORPORATION" in all caps. Like that is persuasive. You responded substantively? You repeated feminist talking points. I haven't spoken to Rush today. I listened to Diane Rehm on NPR, and her guests said the same thing you are saying.
 
I read where HL pays its full time employees 14.00$ and hour starting wage and they opened 30 new stores last year. seems that the for profit thing is working out for them.
 
TexasBred":3hhbm6mp said:
boondocks":3hhbm6mp said:
denvermartinfarms":3hhbm6mp said:
With The type of work we do we dont have any female employees, but As a small business owner I certainly like the way this has gone. I would go out of business before supplying insurance to someone that included going against god.

Denver, does supplying (or using) birth control go against God? I don't mean this to be flippant--I'm curious whether you are against all forms of birth control, and what other medications or medical treatments God prohibits, in your view.

A long read but examples of how scripture was interpreted for thousands of years. From a Catholic source but includes many references as well to protestants.


up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church's teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, swayed by growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception.

Evidence that contraception is in conflict with God's laws comes from a variety of sources that will be examined in this tract.



Nature

Contraception is wrong because it's a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.

But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God's gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation.



Scripture

Is contraception a modern invention? Hardly! Birth control has been around for millennia. Scrolls found in Egypt, dating to 1900 B.C., describe ancient methods of birth control that were later practiced in the Roman empire during the apostolic age. Wool that absorbed sperm, poisons that fumigated the uterus, potions, and other methods were used to prevent conception. In some centuries, even condoms were used (though made out of animal skin rather than latex).

The Bible mentions at least one form of contraception specifically and condemns it. Coitus interruptus, was used by Onan to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one's dead brother. "Judah said to Onan, 'Go in to your brother's wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.' But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).

The biblical penalty for not giving your brother's widow children was public humiliation, not death (Deut. 25:7–10). But Onan received death as punishment for his crime. This means his crime was more than simply not fulfilling the duty of a brother-in-law. He lost his life because he violated natural law, as Jewish and Christian commentators have always understood. For this reason, certain forms of contraception have historically been known as "Onanism," after the man who practiced it, just as homosexuality has historically been known as "Sodomy," after the men of Sodom, who practiced that vice (cf. Gen. 19).

Contraception was so far outside the biblical mindset and so obviously wrong that it did not need the frequent condemnations other sins did. Scripture condemns the practice when it mentions it. Once a moral principle has been established in the Bible, every possible application of it need not be mentioned. For example, the general principle that theft is wrong was clearly established in Scripture; but there's no need to provide an exhaustive list of every kind of theft. Similarly, since the principle that contraception is wrong has been established by being condemned when it's mentioned in the Bible, every particular form of contraception does not need to be dealt with in Scripture in order for us to see that it is condemned.



Apostolic Tradition

The biblical teaching that birth control is wrong is found even more explicitly among the Church Fathers, who recognized the biblical and natural law principles underlying the condemnation.

In A.D. 195, Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2).

Hippolytus of Rome wrote in 255 that "on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful [certain Christian women who had affairs with male servants] want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered" (Refutation of All Heresies9:12).

Around 307 Lactantius explained that some "complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife" (Divine Institutes 6:20).

The First Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical council and the one that defined Christ's divinity, declared in 325, "If anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy" (Canon 1).

Augustine wrote in 419, "I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility [oral contraceptives]" (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17).

The apostolic tradition's condemnation of contraception is so great that it was followed by Protestants until 1930 and was upheld by all key Protestant Reformers. Martin Luther said, "[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established be nice in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed be nice. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him."

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

John Wesley warned, "Those sins that dishonor the body are very displeasing to God, and the evidence of vile affections. Observe, the thing which he [Onan] did displeased the Lord—and it is to be feared; thousands, especially of single persons, by this very thing, still displease the Lord, and destroy their own souls." (These passages are quoted in Charles D. Provan, The Bible and Birth Control, which contains many quotes by historic Protestant figures who recognize contraception's evils.)

TB--do I read this to mean you are against all forms and methods of birth control? Just curious. I know that in most US families (including Catholic and evangelical), fewer children per generation have been born over the past, say, 50 years. Either men are less virile :shock: , women less fertile :( , or couples are using birth control. Most Catholics I've ever known were not opposed to it. I've known and been close friends with many evangelicals who all practiced birth control as well. It does seem as if folks "pick and choose" which Biblical tenets are dealbreakers and which aren't. I don't hold their pragmatism against them.
 
Well, I'm back from town so I'll try to briefly summarize my first Hobby Lobby shopping experience.

Walked through the door and was immediately greeted by Krysta at the cash register counter.

Krysta asked if she could help me find something and I said I wanted to buy several gift cards. She showed me the selection of designs located at both cash registers. No one was at the second cash register..

I picked out 5 cards with various designs, one with birthday greetings. I told Krysta the dollar value I wanted credited to each individual card.

Krysta rang the cards up and enclosed them in envelopes with the value of the card inside written on the envelope. There were no additional fees for the cards, and the cards do not have an expiration date.

Kind of burns me now that for a high school graduation gift I bought a $50 Visa gift card and there was a $5 fee tacked on top of the $50. Both of us would have been better off if I had given her cash or written a check.

I delivered all of the cards except one to their intended destination on the way home. I will deliver the other one tomorrow.

The first card I gave to my tax lady whose mother recently passed away and the funeral was on this past Friday. Her mother was my 8th grade teacher.

I told my tax lady I bought this card to honor her mother and to use the card however she saw fit. She cried with happiness and gave me a big hug. I told her I wanted to do something her mother would approve of and this was it.

The tax lady said my timing was perfect. She intends to use the card to purchase supplies for the soon upcoming VBS.

Second card I left with my postmaster who is celebrating her 80th birthday in a couple days. I told her if she couldn't use the card herself, give it to one of her 9 kids or countless grandkids.

Third card I gave to my cousin who goes to Hobby Lobby all the time.

Fourth card I put in the mail and will be on its way to its destination.

Fifth card I will deliver tomorrow.

The bottom line: Hobby Lobby got $300 worth of business from me because of the boycott. :nod:
 
John SD":1g65uzb4 said:
Well, I'm back from town so I'll try to briefly summarize my first Hobby Lobby shopping experience.

Walked through the door and was immediately greeted by Krysta at the cash register counter.

Krysta asked if she could help me find something and I said I wanted to buy several gift cards. She showed me the selection of designs located at both cash registers. No one was at the second cash register..

I picked out 5 cards with various designs, one with birthday greetings. I told Krysta the dollar value I wanted credited to each individual card.

Krysta rang the cards up and enclosed them in envelopes with the value of the card inside written on the envelope. There were no additional fees for the cards, and the cards do not have an expiration date.

Kind of burns me now that for a high school graduation gift I bought a $50 Visa gift card and there was a $5 fee tacked on top of the $50. Both of us would have been better off if I had given her cash or written a check.

I delivered all of the cards except one to their intended destination on the way home. I will deliver the other one tomorrow.

The first card I gave to my tax lady whose mother recently passed away and the funeral was on this past Friday. Her mother was my 8th grade teacher.

I told my tax lady I bought this card to honor her mother and to use the card however she saw fit. She cried with happiness and gave me a big hug. I told her I wanted to do something her mother would approve of and this was it.

The tax lady said my timing was perfect. She intends to use the card to purchase supplies for the soon upcoming VBS.

Second card I left with my postmaster who is celebrating her 80th birthday in a couple days. I told her if she couldn't use the card herself, give it to one of her 9 kids or countless grandkids.

Third card I gave to my cousin who goes to Hobby Lobby all the time.

Fourth card I put in the mail and will be on its way to its destination.

Fifth card I will deliver tomorrow.

The bottom line: Hobby Lobby got $300 worth of business from me because of the boycott. :nod:

Sure hope you're not burning through your money on my account. I'm sure as heck not boycotting them (didn't know there WAS a boycott). Can't boycott a place you've never shopped (not into made-in-China tscotches. I prefer to buy crafts and gifts locally, from local artists and artisans). Besides, I don't bear the owners any ill will; when asked to do so by a religious group, they pushed the limits of the law as a test case, which they're entitled to do. I simply think that corporations (of whatever stripe) are not humans, and the recent laws conflating the two I find very troubling in a democracy. It will be interesting to see how fast this case is distinguished or limited when the group that comes calling is less favored by the sitting Justices.
 
The biggest issue that I have with the whole thing is how so many act like someone's rights were taken away because they're going to have to pay for their own elective medicine instead of having someone else pay for it for them.
 
boondocks":rt2gpb0b said:
denvermartinfarms":rt2gpb0b said:
With The type of work we do we dont have any female employees, but As a small business owner I certainly like the way this has gone. I would go out of business before supplying insurance to someone that included going against god.

Denver, does supplying (or using) birth control go against God? I don't mean this to be flippant--I'm curious whether you are against all forms of birth control, and what other medications or medical treatments God prohibits, in your view.
God " prohibits " anything that kills people, " in my view ".
 
Ok, maybe it's getting late, but I'm here reading this and literally laughing out loud thinking about how weird it is that we are all here discussing a employer in court because they don't want to offer abortion drugs and birth control to there employes. I mean really???. It's bad enough we have a law that everyone in this country has to have health insurance. but the idea that it should be an EMPLOYERS RESPOSIBILITY to supply things like this, it's simply so un believable to me that's it's cracking me up. Anyone who thinks they should be required to do so is a bubble off, I'm sorry but this is beyond stupid.
 
"... but the idea that it should be an EMPLOYERS RESPOSIBILITY to supply things like this,"

Wasn't health insurance put in the hands of employers as a trade off by the unions when they couldn't give a pay raise...was that back in the '30's? So to this day, our healthcare has not been portable. When you leave your job you find new insurance. Another method of control.
 
16 of 20 BCs are covered.

Maybe I'm being picky, but I think employers have a right to decide what benefits and how much benefits they want to provide.
Not all jobs are created equal.
And not all jobs I have ever worked at have ever even come close to having the same benefits.
 
boondocks":2rvbaj5m said:
Scientific consensus is that the birth control methods this FOR-PROFIT corporation wants to restrict do NOT work by destroying fertilized eggs. See, e.g., http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/health/research/morning-after-pills-dont-block-implantation-science-suggests.html Rather, they prevent fertilization in the first place (that's a GOOD thing if you don't want the abortion rate to go up due to unwanted pregnancies).

Those who applaud this decision are not conservatives. A true conservative does not believe a for-profit CORPORATION has all of the rights of a human being, nor that an employer has the right to dictate health care decisions to its employees. "Nanny state" detractors: take note.

Evangelical Christianity is not the only "religion", and those who think this is a great ruling will, I'm sure, feel the same way when Wiccans get a ruling that men don't get Viagra, or Mormons get a ruling that smokers don't get lung cancer treatment; or Hindus get a ruling that meat-eaters don't get cholesterol meds (or coronary bypasses, or stents, or....).

There has been a pretty sharp line between the rights of an INDIVIDUAL and those of a CORPORATION. This decision, and Citizens United, turn that jurisprudence on its head, taking away our individual rights and giving them to large for-profit corporations. Sorry, but I'm generally for the rights of individuals over corporations. If you want the benefits (limited liability, etc) of acting as a corporation, you should not get the benefits of being a individual also. Corporations aren't people, period, full stop.

Then there's this investigation showing that Hobby Lobby has made extensive investments in such birth control, abortion, etc. : http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn ... ion-drugs/

See also, http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2 ... objection/

Where I come from, we call that situational ethics (or just a hypocrite).


1. I like verification of facts. From the original source (Plan B's website), not so much from partisan writers....

I'll take their word for it, since it is their baby. They invested the millions to gain FDA approval and they've sifted through all the data and are responsible for any and all litigation that comes about from the use of the medication.

That is under the facts section.
Plan B One-Step® is one tablet with levonorgestrel, a hormone that has been used in many birth control pills for several decades. Plan B One-Step® contains a higher dose of levonorgestrel than birth control pills, but works in a similar way to prevent pregnancy. It works mainly by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary. It is possible that Plan B One-Step® may also work by preventing fertilization of an egg (the uniting of sperm with the egg) or by preventing attachment (implantation) to the uterus (womb).

IUD- I assume you can look that one up as well. If you disagree that it keeps an egg from implanting in the uterine wall, I'll explain it further.

If we need to go through them all, I'll be happy to. Ignoring anything I understand about the medications, I don't understand how liberal bloggers would dream that they are privy to information that wasn't available to an attorney arguing in front of the Supreme Court of the United States. And you bought in to this?


2. Why did you take the time to comment about what a "true" conservative thinks or should think? What others thought didn't affect me in grade school, why would I care now? I won't go into the meat of why I would disagree as I believe it has already been addressed. I do find it interesting that in your view the liberal judges voted like a true conservative would and the conservative appointed judges didn't. ;-)

3. Best part of religious freedom, is well.... religious freedom. I'll take western culture where you and I don't have to agree on which church you attend, or if you attend one at all vs a place where you can be hung, raped, shot, burned, or imprisoned for not being of the correct faith, or just because you have a faith and practice it. Won't loose sleep over Wiccans refusing to purchase viagra. Is this really what you're so up in arms about? :lol: :hide: :lol: It's a joke.

4. The situation ethics bit is more than stretching it. For situational ethics to apply, it will need to be shown that they knowingly purchased the funds that contained companies profiting from the sells of abortion inducing medications. I don't think you'll ever get your smoking gun, because I highly doubt it exists. I imagine that there are people on this forum that wouldn't knowingly support the pornography industry, but with the billions made in the industry, they may have a mutual fund that owns stock in an adult entertainment company. Intentional no. When I was younger, I put money into growth funds due to the recommendation of my financial counselor that I didn't know the entirety of the portfolio.

Most importantly, none of these items would be weighed by the court in making this decision.

It should have been a unanimous decision against the US government because of the founding documents:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Boondocks, when you read that, make sure you use the right frame of reference. It is purely a limitation (an outright ban) on the central government, not on the citizens. The citizens should be able to exercise FREELY. Pretty plain English.
 

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