Hereford Frame Size 8

[Chris H]

I think size is mostly driven by what the packer wants. And they want a 1300(give or take) lb steer which fits in their box. Sizes outside of that will fit niche markets.
I've heard that a butcher animal will finish best at approximately the mothers mature weight. Why run 2 1800 lb cows when you can run 3 1200 lb cows on the same feed costs? Ideally you'd still wean off the same lbs of calves, either 2 900 lb calves, or 3 600 lb calves. But the 600 lb calves will be in higher demand.
Cattle sizes have fluctuated some over the last few decades, but ultimately size has been dictated by demand from the packers.

 

[jenran]

Grant Hershey in Alberta would have some 8's and 9's currently and they would be good sound functional cattle.

As a matter of fact, Grant had a calf in Denver in 99 or 00 that was a 8.5 I bet but he was pretty corse.

Just got back from Hirshe"s "herd reduction sale" on Tuesday---SOME of the cows had lots of frame for my way of thinking---if you want to check it out go to http://www.hirshe.com

 

[KNERSIE]

My concern about using the framey bulls is that I really don't want another frame 7 cow ever again. All I've had were hard keepers and when the going just started to go tough they were the first to loose condition and with that milk production. I belief that you can have all the volume capacity and growth with added milking ability in a frame 5 cow weighing about the same as a frame 7 cow would.

I currently have a frame 4.5 cow weighing 1600# with a 4 month old calf weighing 490#s that isn't obese fat, but carries a lot of meat, have a strong constitution and breeds back like clockwork. What more can a frame 7-8 possibly over over that?

Prof JC Bosma once stated and I will keep this in mind in all my breeding decisions:

"Nature doesn't tolerate extremes"

And by extremes he didn't just imply the large framed ones, either...

 

[MikeC]

There are no packer deductions for cattle carcasses that weigh over 1000 lbs anymore. That would mean a 1600 lb calf.

A frame 8 bull on frame 5-6 cows should get you there.

 

[KMacGinley]

I would guess that there will be several years here before cattle on average get too small.

Single trait selection usually is a mistake. Did I say usually?; I think I meant always a mistake.

 

[shutskytj]

Personally I would be very leary of those 70 and 80's big framed bulls they had frame and that was it a big fad back then the taller the better milk and muscle didn't seem to matter as much. All there milk epd's are negative and those bulls I think lacked rib and flank

 

[oakcreekfarms]

There is a reason that you don't see a lot of 8 or even 7 frame cattle anymore. They were huge with no middle and no rear, ugly animials in my opinion

 

[salemhigh]

8 to 10 frame on herefords=calving problems,also the air between the ground and the belly never paid nor weighed much.

 

[HerefordSire]

Grant Hershey in Alberta would have some 8's and 9's currently and they would be good sound functional cattle.

Any internet link available?

 

[HerefordSire]

Harper / Ochs Herefords are some big ones.

Brandon provided the link to Harper above.

 

[HerefordSire]

Kight Ryder cows would not milk.

What about Classic, Perfection and Stars and Stripes? There were all pretty big bulls.

Are these in the AHA database?

 

[HerefordSire]

dun...

do you have a couple of stories you would like to share?

 

[HerefordSire]

I called a couple friends herefordsire. They'll check the tank. One thinks he has some driver and the other thinks he has enforcer.

Enforcer 107H? You got me excited until I saw the frame size in AHA database. Which Enforcer are you referring to?

 

[HerefordSire]

Interesting thread here guys. If you really are that set on haveing frame 8 plus cattle get yourself ahold of the late 1980's and early 1990's Hereford World magazines and you will see lots of them.

In all this discussion, the one thing that concerns me when people mention frame size is that they routinely leave out the word performance. It doesn't matter how much frame cattle have, if they don't grow, what good are they even if the do get to frame 8?

Herefordsire, youre right in that many people will go too far overboard on the small frame thing, and many have probably already, but it may be a long wait for the pendulum too swing all the way back to the dinosaurs of the past. My 6 frame bulls will out perform the big framed cattle of the past anyday without all the problems of poor structure, no milk, hard doing, and extra large birthweights. I have finished enough cattle to know that it isn't necessarily how big they get, its how fast they get there in what determines the profit or loss on that pen.

I personally believe the cattle industry will have a war on fat before we go back to the frame 8 behemoths.

Brian

Good post! Does that mean you believe we will move back to larger frames? Bottom line dollar in regards to frame is hard to project. I do not believe the most economical frame size in modern standards has been determined yet. I think we are trying to find it though which explains the over exageration downward. Please expand on the fat thought.

I like your usage of the word fast. Is it possible for an 8 frame to get there faster than a 6 frame with the right genes, feed, etc.?

 

[HerefordSire]

I think size is mostly driven by what the packer wants. And they want a 1300(give or take) lb steer which fits in their box. Sizes outside of that will fit niche markets.
I've heard that a butcher animal will finish best at approximately the mothers mature weight. Why run 2 1800 lb cows when you can run 3 1200 lb cows on the same feed costs? Ideally you'd still wean off the same lbs of calves, either 2 900 lb calves, or 3 600 lb calves. But the 600 lb calves will be in higher demand.
Cattle sizes have fluctuated some over the last few decades, but ultimately size has been dictated by demand from the packers.

Hi Chris. Interesting. What does a packer want if we are in a depression? How many total calories of food can you produce each way...2 large or 3 smaller? Good topic...needs another thread in itself.

 

[MikeC]

Impact of Cow Size on Nutrient Needs



Nutrient needs for cows of different body weights are not the same. Cows that weigh 1,300 pounds have a greater nutrient (pounds of protein, pounds of energy (TDN), ounces of mineral, etc) requirement compared to cows that weigh 1,000 pounds. If a 1,000 pound cow and a 1,300 pound cow are grazing the same forage resource, the 1,300 pound cow will need to consume more of that forage to meet her requirements. Maintenance feed intake is proportional to metabolic body weight which is described as body weight to the 3/4 power (body wt.3/4). Metabolic body weight isn't just weight of the animal but also describes the surface area of the animal. Heavier cows eat more feed to meet their requirements. The question is: how much more do heavier cows eat?? Table 1 (metabolic body weight is expressed in kilograms) suggests that for each 10% increase in body weight, there is not a 10% increase in maintenance feed intake. The data suggests about a 7% increase in feed intake for each 10% increase in live weight. A 1,300 pound cow is will consume 22% more feed than the 1,000 pound female although there is a 30% difference in body weight.



Source: Dr. Rick Rasby, Professor of Animal Science, Animal Science, University of Nebraska - Lincoln, Lincoln, NE

 

[cattlemom]

Mike C - that's exactly the point I was going to make. Regardless of each cattle person's personal preference on frame size the amount of land available has to come into play eventually. Especially in an area like ours that is urbanizing very quickly. You either have to reduce the number of cattle you have grazing or reduce the size of those cattle so you can meet their nutritional needs. I can't imagine anyone wanting to increase frame size of cows right now when many people cannot find enough hay to get their moderate to small framed cows through the winter.

 

[MikeC]

Mike C - that's exactly the point I was going to make. Regardless of each cattle person's personal preference on frame size the amount of land available has to come into play eventually. Especially in an area like ours that is urbanizing very quickly. You either have to reduce the number of cattle you have grazing or reduce the size of those cattle so you can meet their nutritional needs. I can't imagine anyone wanting to increase frame size of cows right now when many people cannot find enough hay to get their moderate to small framed cows through the winter.

So why don't we just go to ALL miniatures? :lol:

Pounds make you money. All other things being equal I'd rather hang a 999 lb carcass on the rail. You can do that with a 5 frame cow too if you breed a larger framed bull. But most folks are so worried about low BW they shy away from it.

 

[HerefordSire]

MikeC...

Nice article. There are several holes is the text though, as I am sure you are aware of...

One of which is (any there are several)...in my past I hung out with some overweight people with low metabolism. I eat twice as much as they yet they gain weight and I have a hard time staying the same weight. I have a high metabolism and they usually have a low metabolism. It may not be their fault because they are overweight. When I was in college, I would drink a six pack of sport shake (1,800 calories) plus eat four heavy meals each day along with vitamins. I gained a little weight, but not much. The point is this: The metabolism is just one variable to add to the list of variables to study. Do you know what your metabolism measurement is? I know I don't know mine. Where is this recorded? How about an frame 6 or 8 cow? Put it this way, I would rather feed a 300 pound body builder with a low metabolism than me weighing 180 pounds with a high metabolism.

 

[MikeC]

MikeC...

Nice article. There are several holes is the text though, as I am sure you are aware of...

One of which is (any there are several)...in my past I hung out with some overweight people with low metabolism. I eat twice as much as they yet they gain weight and I have a hard time staying the same weight. I have a high metabolism and they usually have a low metabolism. It may not be their fault because they are overweight. When I was in college, I would drink a six pack of sport shake (1,800 calories) plus eat four heavy meals each day along with vitamins. I gained a little weight, but not much. The point is this: The metabolism is just one variable to add to the list of variables to study. Do you know what your metabolism measurement is? I know I don't know mine. Where is this recorded? How about an frame 6 or 8 cow? Put it this way, I would rather feed a 300 pound body builder with a low metabolism than me weighing 180 pounds with a high metabolism.

I get your drift and understand what you are saying.........but people haven't been culled for generations for not putting on weight either.

Simply, I don't believe cattle and human genetics can be compared.