Herd Sire vs AI Calves

[cow pollinater]

As for genetic progress.....well lets just say, there have fertile functional range cows at work on western ranges for a long time now and some of your genetically progressive superior sires have been directly responsible for damaging that good record, sorry to be the bearer of bad news! :tiphat:

Without intending to sound disrespectfull, what I hear when I read that is that you're having a hard time picking genetics that work in your environment. There is a reason that the ABS catalog has fifty-plus pages of angus sires and about half of them are plugs on paper that most of us would never use... they are there because they work well for people outside of the purebred scene. If focused genetic improvement didn't work all of us with range cattle would still have longhorns.

I have not forsaken AI, or my definition of genetic progress, but I am certainly not so green, gullible, and or foolish to believe all bulls being marketed through AI studs are worthy of siring the next bigger better faster greatest latest future herd sire.

I AI for a living and I share a healthy dose of your sceptisizm. It's extremely hard to balance between the glitz and glamour of the "best" bulls and making a product that commercial cow men will be satisfied with. When I choose bulls I set my criteria before I open the catalog and it can really effect my choices. As an insider, I'll admit that alot of the hyped bulls are hyped simply so that there is a high end to the line-up for customers who only want "the best" when in reality they aren't much better than some of the bulls in the mid-range.

 

[mrvictordomino]

So many bulls are used today where you really do not know much about them. To quote Forest Gump, kinda like a box of chocolates, you don't know what you'll get. Also, how would I ever expect for anyone to use one of my bulls if they are not suitable for me to use.
DM

The problem with internal herdsires though is that you don't know anything about them either when you first work one in. It might be from your best stock, but that doesn't mean he's going to throw good stock. That's where ai has the advantage - at least people have seen calves on the ground - offspring have been to bull tests, calf weights have been measured, wean weights, etc. You might find out too late that the herdsire out of your own stock is a dog.

That may or may not be a true assumption, however, I will take my chances on these young guys. It has worked
pretty well in the past.
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 5&9=50505C
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 6&9=505059
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 4&9=505F52
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 4&9=505F5E
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 2&9=505F5C

 

[Dylan Biggs]

You might find out too late that the herdsire out of your own stock is a dog.

You might. That is true. Dogs are found in studs also. If you track the number of prospects that Studs bring in to their line up every year and see how many actually stay in the line up it is clear that no prospect is risk free.

 

[pdfangus]

You might find out too late that the herdsire out of your own stock is a dog.

You might. That is true. Dogs are found in studs also. If you track the number of prospects that Studs bring in to their line up every year and see how many actually stay in the line up it is clear that no prospect is risk free.

I once heard a number that they hope for one in three to make it.
now this was a few years ago before all the breeder owned studs....
And I do not recall if they were talking beef or beef and dairy.....
Make it .... also would include not only progeny perfomance results but consumer (AI using breeder) acceptance as well.

Now....I will tromp on some toes....

Some studs can get prefix blind.....
but these AI comapnies have folks on staff, whose job it is, to find bulls that will increase sales share for the stud
These folks look at more than a couple of bulls a year.
Industry standards for what is desired in a bull change....a mere glance at mature heights over the years will reinforce this argument.
Not everyone wants the same things in a bull.
there is a wide diversity of genetics in several breeds. A dog to one breeder is the ultimate to another. EPD breeders will not consider Wye cattle. Wye does not obsess over epds even thought they were among the first to contribute tremendous data that the angus breed data was based on.
There are, and always have been, and will always be, breeders at the top of the heap who will have difficulty finding bulls outside their herd who will improve their herd. Most of these still try to find that bull.
for all of us to think that old betsy out back when bred to the right bull will give us the bull to compete with those breeders........I truly enjoy the optimism.

There are breeders who have been at it a long time and who have carved out a market and who are very sucessful with their own program. not all of them are famous.

To me there is a difference between having the confidence to use my own bulls, and making the assumption that because I do not have a drop off in performance that my bulls are as good as anything available AI.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

pdf quoted "To me there is a difference between having the confidence to use my own bulls, and making the assumption that because I do not have a drop off in performance that my bulls are as good as anything available AI." :clap:
There have been some good points on both sides of this debate. I am a true believer in AI, having been 100% AI for nearly 40 years (now use a clean up bull for 21 days). I don't believe any ONE bull can and will "improve" every cow in your herd. We pick a bull for a cow - shooting for a targeted goal - which if we get what we are looking for (do our homework), gives us a very uniform calf crop.
As a very common easy example, we have older cows that are very large frame (older style) and some new modern low framed cows. I sure wouldn't use the same bull on both styles and expect a uniform calf crop. Some cows milk more than we want, some don't. Most are little subtle differences.
I'm not saying a homegrown bull won't do a good job for producers - after all, I sell bull calves and I now occasionally use my own homegrown bull for cleanup. I just "cringe" everytime I see the cleanup bull "get" one of my cows. :cry2:

 

[KNERSIE]

In the past I used bought in bulls, went 100% AI for a few years to AI and clean up with a bought in bull to AI and clean up with a homegrown bull to using exclusively homegrown bulls this last year. I have found that my homegrown bulls work consistantly for me where AI often varies from outstanding to acceptable but just average.

This doesn't mean I won't ever AI again or even try out new genetics via AI, but I shall probably always continue to linebreed what I know works for me. The crux of the matter when using a homegrown bull is that you need to be able to identify that superior bull as a young calf.

As a last remark, when you use selective AI and your homegrown bulls, don't AI all of your best cows, leave a few for the homegrown bull too just to have a good control to compare to.

 

[pdfangus]

my method for giving the home bull opportunity is to try to AI everything once and the bull gets what does not settle equal opportunity.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

my method for giving the home bull opportunity is to try to AI everything once and the bull gets what does not settle equal opportunity.

:clap: :clap: that's my method!!

 

[redcowsrule33]

my method for giving the home bull opportunity is to try to AI everything once and the bull gets what does not settle equal opportunity.

:clap: :clap: that's my method!!

Ours too!

 

[KNERSIE]

my method for giving the home bull opportunity is to try to AI everything once and the bull gets what does not settle equal opportunity.

:clap: :clap: that's my method!!

Ours too!

Used to be mine too, but at weaning time the clean up bull's calves will be a minimum of three weeks younger than the AI calves and as you know a lot changes between 6 and 7 months old in calves.

 

[redcowsrule33]

I guess, Knersie, that's the difference between a "clean-up bull" and a "herd sire". A bull on our place has to have proven himself through his daughters to be much else, unless he is from some truly outstanding individuals. He gets first shot at all but our best commercials (who I use to try out some young unproven AI sires) and cleans up the purebreds. Our last clean-up bull turned into a herd sire until he had too many daughters, now he works in my dad's commercial herd. I will say, though, I won't use a bull that I don't consider to have herd sire potential, unlike some guys around here that just want something w/ 4 legs and a set of testicles.

 

[SRBeef]

...This doesn't mean I won't ever AI again or even try out new genetics via AI, but I shall probably always continue to linebreed what I know works for me. The crux of the matter when using a homegrown bull is that you need to be able to identify that superior bull as a young calf.

Last May when my vet and I were working the spring calves the homegrown bull on my bulls post came through and was obviously heavier, stronger and just more solid than the others. He even walked differently. When it came time to cut we both agreed - "not this one". I feel that while some others may "catch-up" later in some ways, the truly superior bull candidate (at least in my case above) seems like he sticks out even as a young calf, as Knersie notes above.

Jim

 

[Dylan Biggs]

...This doesn't mean I won't ever AI again or even try out new genetics via AI, but I shall probably always continue to linebreed what I know works for me. The crux of the matter when using a homegrown bull is that you need to be able to identify that superior bull as a young calf.

Last May when my vet and I were working the spring calves the homegrown bull on my bulls post came through and was obviously heavier, stronger and just more solid than the others. He even walked differently. When it came time to cut we both agreed - "not this one". I feel that while some others may "catch-up" later in some ways, the truly superior bull candidate (at least in my case above) seems like he sticks out even as a young calf, as Knersie notes above.

Jim

We calve May and June, vaccinate, freeze brand, and castrate the second week of July, if they don't stick out by then they get banded.

 

[angus9259]

I'll hijack my own thread . . . are you freeze branding at 30-60 days old?

 

[Dylan Biggs]

With our ownership brand, inverted heart C on the left hip.

 

[3waycross]

With our ownership brand, inverted heart C on the left hip.

Dylan what's the coldest temperature you are comfortable with, when you're freeze branding. I am going to start this spring and was told that it needs to be pretty warm outside for it to work well.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

With our ownership brand, inverted heart C on the left hip.

Dylan what's the coldest temperature you are comfortable with, when you're freeze branding. I am going to start this spring and was told that it needs to be pretty warm outside for it to work well.

We have been freeze branding since 1980 and usually do the calves in the summer and the replacements in the spring with individual ID numbers. I have never been concerned with it being too cold. Not sure how being cold out could adversely affect brand outcome. Wind can.

L&H Manufacturing, Mandan, North Dakaota, would be a good contact for a definitive answer or some on this site may have a better answer then mine.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Here is a bull I would consider AIing to. Anyone have any experience with this bull or know anything about him?

http://origenbeef.org/store/product_info.php?products_id=116

 

[3waycross]

Here is a bull I would consider AIing to. Anyone have any experience with this bull or know anything about him?

http://origenbeef.org/store/product_info.php?products_id=116

Heckova bull but he probably wouldn't work here even for balancers...too much Travelar...bad PAP

L&H is where I bought my freeze branding iron.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Here is a bull I would consider AIing to. Anyone have any experience with this bull or know anything about him?

http://origenbeef.org/store/product_info.php?products_id=116

Heckova bull but he probably wouldn't work here even for balancers...too much Travelar...bad PAP

L&H is where I bought my freeze branding iron.

A lot of Traveler for sure, seems difficult to avoid. What bloodlines seem to work consistently for good PAP.