Most calves are on the ground now. Have calves out of Bismark, In Focus, Gridiron, predestined, Primestar, Final Answer and D806. My best looking heifers are out of my cleanup bull. :mad: To make matters worse, I sold that cleanup bull as a 2 year old (use a new cleanup bull every year). :cry2:
Herd Sire vs AI Calves
- Thread starter angus9259
- Start date
I am in the same boat! Best heifers I have ever weaned and bred were from a bull I sold as a 2 yr old also. I have since tracked him back down and trying to buy him back, gonna get some semen in the tank from him. The previous owner didn't like him because he had 75% heifers, he wanted steers. I had a grand total of 10 calves out of him and he produced the same ratio of heifers for me. He was a Grid Topper son, and, Grid Topper has produced some of the best animals I have ever raised.
Sizmic
Sizmic
We still breed to our Macho As U bull, maybe 2-5 each year. Our showstring ALWAYS ends up as Macho progeny - they float to the top every time we analyze the calf crop. We had 6 head in our showstring this past year - all were related to him - some were grand kids.
No, Macho is dead - we AI & still sell semen. Guy coming today to pick up some.
SRBeef
Well-known member
I think this is another example of possible benefits of keeping your best bull calf out of your best cow family and giving him a try. At least you know what you are working with. AI his dam and sisters to something else. Problem is it takes a year to get there. Good luck. Jim
Well, we raised Macho, but he was purchased as an embryo.
Bonsman
Well-known member
angus9259":39fr40nr said:
Sometimes, it does not hurt to collect a little semen from the cleanup bulls. You never know............plus it is cheap insurance in the grand scheme of things. I collect at least a little off the bulls I use.
pdfangus
Well-known member
over a 20 year period of whole herd AI and then following with one of our own young bulls we observed the same thing.
We got to the point where our bull progeny competed very well with the Ai progeny.
this was amplified when we started using the sons of our good cows on other good cows.
However AI built the herd that produced those good cows and the resulting progeny that were used were the ones that were the most sucessful in our environment. the environment factor can not be ignored.
When you get barn blind and stop using AI, one thing that will happen for sure is your EPDs will take a hit. Not advocating chasing numbers but numbers matter to a lot of customers at sale time. In our state we have to have breed average epd numbers to qualify for a state BCIA bull test.
We got to the point where our bull progeny competed very well with the Ai progeny.
this was amplified when we started using the sons of our good cows on other good cows.
However AI built the herd that produced those good cows and the resulting progeny that were used were the ones that were the most sucessful in our environment. the environment factor can not be ignored.
When you get barn blind and stop using AI, one thing that will happen for sure is your EPDs will take a hit. Not advocating chasing numbers but numbers matter to a lot of customers at sale time. In our state we have to have breed average epd numbers to qualify for a state BCIA bull test.
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
angus9259":emfc8pwm said:
Been there :bang: :mad: :lol2:
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
dun":2pk3tm2z said:
I guess it just depends on the producer, most producers I know are just the opposite. :???:
For them to keep and use one of their own it has to be virtually a perfect specimen.
I think it is possible to be so convinced of AI sire superiority that you can't see the value in your own stock.
Theoretically if the AI sires one has been using for years on end are so good it should be easy to find a good herd sire prospect in your own herd, as Jim eluded to. :cboy:
pdfangus
Well-known member
I have never found one that I would stop AI for and just use the bull....
but i don't obsess over getting every cow bred AI like I used to.....
I still have never seen the perfect bull either mine or AI.
Like us humans all of them have a little chink in the armor somewhere.
but i don't obsess over getting every cow bred AI like I used to.....
I still have never seen the perfect bull either mine or AI.
Like us humans all of them have a little chink in the armor somewhere.
novaman
Well-known member
If AI was not superior why would anyone go through all the trouble of doing it? I'm not saying one's own herd cannot get to a point where they are competitive with the sires in an stud's lineup. However, there is a constant improvement in the genetics of cattle. If one moves away from AI a bit in favor of a home grown sire, wouldn't it seem logical that you are falling behind in genetic progress? You are basically saying I am happy with the genetics that are present and I want to concentrate on duplicating those genetics with less chance of adding superior genetics.Dylan Biggs":31ws1on2 said:
pdfangus
Well-known member
MY ANSWER WOULD BE TO BRING IN DIFFERENT TRAITS.
SUPERIOR KNOWN STRUCTURE
KNOW GOOD DAUGHTERS
KNOW GROWTH TRAITS
CARCASS TRAITS
SHORE UP A WEAK AREA IN YOUR HERD
UP TO THE BREEDER TO DESIGN WHAT HE NEEDS TO IMPROVE AND FIND THE BULL TO DO IT.
MIGHT JUST BE OUTCROSS GENETICS.
SUPERIOR KNOWN STRUCTURE
KNOW GOOD DAUGHTERS
KNOW GROWTH TRAITS
CARCASS TRAITS
SHORE UP A WEAK AREA IN YOUR HERD
UP TO THE BREEDER TO DESIGN WHAT HE NEEDS TO IMPROVE AND FIND THE BULL TO DO IT.
MIGHT JUST BE OUTCROSS GENETICS.
novaman":160irptu said:
One reason is that without outside (AI) proven sires, or for that matter unproven AI sires, your EPD's go in the tank so to speak, bwepds creep up and growth and milk traits creep down, because they have less linkage with the mainstream. EPD's are a measure of population averages, they encourage outcrossing, when you have a diversity of genetics combined the outcome is predicatable from a growth standpoint but unpredictable from a type/quality standpoint. Studs collect bulls that are outcrosses to the last great one they promoted, this gives the effect of hybrid vigor in straightbred programs, avoids exposing potential defects (though contributes to the spread of those defects) and rides on the back of already established marketing programs so the selling is an easier proposition (superbull must be good because breeder A is using him!) As for progress, or superiority, define it. Ever increasing weights? Ever increasing rib eye or marbling? Ever increasing cow size?
SRBeef
Well-known member
novaman":1pv70qdj said:
This is a good point. I think there are two basic aspects to "improvement"
One part of herd improvement is to look at your "best" and compare them to what is available from other breeders either by AI or buying a bull.
Another part of herd improvement, at least in my case, is to get my median herd average much closer up to where my "best" are.
Even in my small herd, put together from a variety of sources, I see very wide differences between animals in the traits that are important to me in my particular small but different than most operation.
I look at using a blend of my own bulls and outside (Huth) bulls as a way of bringing my herd average up while occasionally bring in some complementary outside genes.
Don't know if I said that well but working within my herd I am looking to bring my average up to my best by using known quantities from my best rather than taking a chance on outside genes.
I can not afford to go buying a lot of high priced females so I am going to make those from what I have and know something about. Using a bull calf from my one what I would call "ideal" cow will hopefully spread her genes around the herd.
As I get as good heifer from him and my base cows I am going to sell the base cow and work with the "improved" offspring. Then breed this "improved" offspring to a Huth bull with more complementary traits and go on from there.
Along with aggressive culling, I think I can get my herd average up closer to my herd best although it will take time to do it this way. jmho.
Jim
