Help me understand

[ALACOWMAN]

I've learned to be happy in a lot of situations....if there was only one breed, I would try and raise the best example of it as possible...and not cry about it .and try to reinvent the wheel...

I thought we were discussing various ways to raise profitable cattle. Discussing using different breeds and crosses is not reinventing the wheel, it is just looking at the possibilities.

It is wonderful that you are happy with your cattle. But why shoot down other ways of doing it by other people?

just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...

 

[Bullitt]

It is wonderful that you are happy with your cattle. But why shoot down other ways of doing it by other people?

just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...[/quote]

I did not see you say before for people to use whatever breed they want. I do not feel I was selective. Now you are saying that. I agree that people should raise whatever breed they want.

 

[elkwc]

I've learned to be happy in a lot of situations....if there was only one breed, I would try and raise the best example of it as possible...and not cry about it .and try to reinvent the wheel...

I thought we were discussing various ways to raise profitable cattle. Discussing using different breeds and crosses is not reinventing the wheel, it is just looking at the possibilities.

It is wonderful that you are happy with your cattle. But why shoot down other ways of doing it by other people?

just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...

I agree with you. Each of us as breeders have a different situation and many of us have totally different environments. Each of us have had different experiences with different breeds. What sells and performs well in one area doesn't in another. I try not to trash breeds. I see cattle I like in breeds I will likely never use. I do hesitate to say one breed is the best choice for someone that I don't know their area or environment. What I do say is what works for me. It is those who say you have to raise this breed or that breed or you are stupid that I don't agree with. That only one the breed they raise is the best. I will continue to try different breeds when I feel they may benefit us. We tried the Gelbveigh influence and didn't feel it benefitted us. But I see those I like and know breeders it works for. So would never tell anyone it was a bad choice or not to use them.

And back to the original question about Hereford purity. There are known outside crosses in Herefords that was never addressed. So compared to Herefords of many years ago they aren't as pure. And like I've stated on the other site that is why I don't consider certain bloodlines that dominate the current Hereford population. The cattle don't produce uniform progeny. I attribute it too the mix of influences and as a commercial breeder I don't know what they are so can't make an informed breeding decision. Again we each are entitled to our opinions.

 

[SPH]

I thought we were discussing various ways to raise profitable cattle. Discussing using different breeds and crosses is not reinventing the wheel, it is just looking at the possibilities.

It is wonderful that you are happy with your cattle. But why shoot down other ways of doing it by other people?

just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...

I agree with you. Each of us as breeders have a different situation and many of us have totally different environments. Each of us have had different experiences with different breeds. What sells and performs well in one area doesn't in another. I try not to trash breeds. I see cattle I like in breeds I will likely never use. I do hesitate to say one breed is the best choice for someone that I don't know their area or environment. What I do say is what works for me. It is those who say you have to raise this breed or that breed or you are stupid that I don't agree with. That only one the breed they raise is the best. I will continue to try different breeds when I feel they may benefit us. We tried the Gelbveigh influence and didn't feel it benefitted us. But I see those I like and know breeders it works for. So would never tell anyone it was a bad choice or not to use them.

And back to the original question about Hereford purity. There are known outside crosses in Herefords that was never addressed. So compared to Herefords of many years ago they aren't as pure. And like I've stated on the other site that is why I don't consider certain bloodlines that dominate the current Hereford population. The cattle don't produce uniform progeny. I attribute it too the mix of influences and as a commercial breeder I don't know what they are so can't make an informed breeding decision. Again we each are entitled to our opinions.

That bolded last part is much more opinion than it is anything close to fact at this point and I'm trying to respond to that in a civil manner where I respect the right to have a point of view even if I don't necessarily agree with it. I tried to bite my tongue and stay out of the purity topic but I've got to the point where it's getting rather ridiculous some of the things certain people are trying to claim as fact when they have nothing but hearsay, rumors, and 3rd person accounts of without any published facts or data to back those claims. You are entitled to your opinion on the breed purity thing as is everyone but there has yet to be any conclusive or factual tests or data that has proven the impurity claims that some over on Hereford Talk have spun and twisted to the point of obsession. It's even more sad that for people who are breeding Herefords for a living some of those same people feel the need to take such a negative view and essentially devalue the very breed they claim they love, advance, and promote by constantly claiming the breed is impure. What I don't understand is how the same people who are saying that genomics are inaccurate and a waste of time and resources are the same ones clamoring for a reliable test for breed purity. If genomics are unreliable and inaccurate then how will we ever be able to trust the accuracy of a breed purity test using DNA if the same people calling for a purity test don't trust the science that goes into it? Same thing with those who think that breed associations need to go away, without a breed association to administrate registrations just how do you propose keeping breeders in check without a governing body to have checks and balances in place to make sure someone doesn't insert an outside breed into the registry without a set of rules and way to check parentage? It would become a much more relevant thing if the science behind a purity test was fail proof but until it is breeders are entitled to manage their programs in a manner they feel is in their best interests and deal with potential issues if and when a reliable purity test is proven to be accurate. Those programs that have stood the test of time and have had success didn't do it by being EPD chasers or following the latest show ring trends like some seem to thing is the dominate thinking within the breed. That's enough on the purity stuff, it's become this :deadhorse: to even debate it anymore with some people. It's a 1 sided discussion on Hereford Talk these days because the website owner has banned anyone who has a differing opinion than him so to even mention it as a reference doesn't hold much water because the conversation leans to a certain bias and at least here you aren't censored for having a different point of view and allowed to speak your mind.

I completely agree with you comments on environment factors. What works well for 1 guy in 1 area may not work for another in their area. And what kind of cattle breeders in your area can definitely dictate the value and market for certain cattle. You and I have had discussions on this how in your area the market doesn't seem as strong for Herefords but in our area the market is much stronger and we see more demand for Hereford bulls than some may in other areas. We aren't going to tell someone what they should or should not be breeding because guys are going to breed whatever they feel does the best for them, but we do hope they consider looking into the value a Hereford bull can add to a commercial herd or the hardiness and longevity a Hereford female adds as well.

Not sure that I have ever told you this previously Jay but it may surprise you that a long time back we did have some crossbred females in our herd before we eventually sent the last of them off to the sale barn either for temperament, open, or performance reasons. Had some black Angus, shorthorn, Saler, and Gelbvieh influence in those female that depending on the color of the female we'd cross with an Angus or Gelbvieh sire then turn out cleanup with our Hereford bull. Had some great calves out of those cows, temperament was the biggest negatives especially those with the mostly black Angus influence but they sure weaned a nice calf. A lot of the larger Hereford breeders we know or have visited usually have a pasture of commercial females - most of black Angus influence but also some other mixes - so they too are taking advantage of crossbreeding their Hereford bulls with commercial cows.

 

[elkwc]

just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...

I agree with you. Each of us as breeders have a different situation and many of us have totally different environments. Each of us have had different experiences with different breeds. What sells and performs well in one area doesn't in another. I try not to trash breeds. I see cattle I like in breeds I will likely never use. I do hesitate to say one breed is the best choice for someone that I don't know their area or environment. What I do say is what works for me. It is those who say you have to raise this breed or that breed or you are stupid that I don't agree with. That only one the breed they raise is the best. I will continue to try different breeds when I feel they may benefit us. We tried the Gelbveigh influence and didn't feel it benefitted us. But I see those I like and know breeders it works for. So would never tell anyone it was a bad choice or not to use them.

And back to the original question about Hereford purity. There are known outside crosses in Herefords that was never addressed. So compared to Herefords of many years ago they aren't as pure. And like I've stated on the other site that is why I don't consider certain bloodlines that dominate the current Hereford population. The cattle don't produce uniform progeny. I attribute it too the mix of influences and as a commercial breeder I don't know what they are so can't make an informed breeding decision. Again we each are entitled to our opinions.

That bolded last part is much more opinion than it is anything close to fact at this point and I'm trying to respond to that in a civil manner where I respect the right to have a point of view even if I don't necessarily agree with it. I tried to bite my tongue and stay out of the purity topic but I've got to the point where it's getting rather ridiculous some of the things certain people are trying to claim as fact when they have nothing but hearsay, rumors, and 3rd person accounts of without any published facts or data to back those claims. You are entitled to your opinion on the breed purity thing as is everyone but there has yet to be any conclusive or factual tests or data that has proven the impurity claims that some over on Hereford Talk have spun and twisted to the point of obsession. It's even more sad that for people who are breeding Herefords for a living some of those same people feel the need to take such a negative view and essentially devalue the very breed they claim they love, advance, and promote by constantly claiming the breed is impure. What I don't understand is how the same people who are saying that genomics are inaccurate and a waste of time and resources are the same ones clamoring for a reliable test for breed purity. If genomics are unreliable and inaccurate then how will we ever be able to trust the accuracy of a breed purity test using DNA if the same people calling for a purity test don't trust the science that goes into it? Same thing with those who think that breed associations need to go away, without a breed association to administrate registrations just how do you propose keeping breeders in check without a governing body to have checks and balances in place to make sure someone doesn't insert an outside breed into the registry without a set of rules and way to check parentage? It would become a much more relevant thing if the science behind a purity test was fail proof but until it is breeders are entitled to manage their programs in a manner they feel is in their best interests and deal with potential issues if and when a reliable purity test is proven to be accurate. Those programs that have stood the test of time and have had success didn't do it by being EPD chasers or following the latest show ring trends like some seem to thing is the dominate thinking within the breed. That's enough on the purity stuff, it's become this :deadhorse: to even debate it anymore with some people. It's a 1 sided discussion on Hereford Talk these days because the website owner has banned anyone who has a differing opinion than him so to even mention it as a reference doesn't hold much water because the conversation leans to a certain bias and at least here you aren't censored for having a different point of view and allowed to speak your mind.

I completely agree with you comments on environment factors. What works well for 1 guy in 1 area may not work for another in their area. And what kind of cattle breeders in your area can definitely dictate the value and market for certain cattle. You and I have had discussions on this how in your area the market doesn't seem as strong for Herefords but in our area the market is much stronger and we see more demand for Hereford bulls than some may in other areas. We aren't going to tell someone what they should or should not be breeding because guys are going to breed whatever they feel does the best for them, but we do hope they consider looking into the value a Hereford bull can add to a commercial herd or the hardiness and longevity a Hereford female adds as well.

Not sure that I have ever told you this previously Jay but it may surprise you that a long time back we did have some crossbred females in our herd before we eventually sent the last of them off to the sale barn either for temperament, open, or performance reasons. Had some black Angus, shorthorn, Saler, and Gelbvieh influence in those female that depending on the color of the female we'd cross with an Angus or Gelbvieh sire then turn out cleanup with our Hereford bull. Had some great calves out of those cows, temperament was the biggest negatives especially those with the mostly black Angus influence but they sure weaned a nice calf. A lot of the larger Hereford breeders we know or have visited usually have a pasture of commercial females - most of black Angus influence but also some other mixes - so they too are taking advantage of crossbreeding their Hereford bulls with commercial cows.

So Travis you are going to say that Titan was a pure Hereford? If so I'm not sure how much evidence you would need to convince you he wasn't. I haven't talked to another Hereford breeder that was around at that time that don't say he wasn't a crossbred. All of the issues associated with him and his progeny proved beyond a doubt that he was. I have talked to some commercial breeders who experienced issuses with cattle that went back to him and there were a few others also. I place more credence in what someone who was around and affected tells me than what someone who didn't have any stake or knowledge of a situation says. Like I've stated there is obvious crosses in the Angus breed also. I know Angus breeders who have told me certain bloodlines to stay away from. Putting your head in the sand and denying the obvious isn't helping the Hereford breed. The lack of uniformity and consistency along with off colors among Herefords is hurting them overall. Those from reputable breeders sell good but the others around here are docked heavy. As you know we purchased some Hereford heifers but had to do a lot of looking to find some we felt was pure. And you also know we have looked for a polled bull but can't find one without any Titan influence that is the quality we are looking for.

 

[SPH]

I agree with you. Each of us as breeders have a different situation and many of us have totally different environments. Each of us have had different experiences with different breeds. What sells and performs well in one area doesn't in another. I try not to trash breeds. I see cattle I like in breeds I will likely never use. I do hesitate to say one breed is the best choice for someone that I don't know their area or environment. What I do say is what works for me. It is those who say you have to raise this breed or that breed or you are stupid that I don't agree with. That only one the breed they raise is the best. I will continue to try different breeds when I feel they may benefit us. We tried the Gelbveigh influence and didn't feel it benefitted us. But I see those I like and know breeders it works for. So would never tell anyone it was a bad choice or not to use them.

And back to the original question about Hereford purity. There are known outside crosses in Herefords that was never addressed. So compared to Herefords of many years ago they aren't as pure. And like I've stated on the other site that is why I don't consider certain bloodlines that dominate the current Hereford population. The cattle don't produce uniform progeny. I attribute it too the mix of influences and as a commercial breeder I don't know what they are so can't make an informed breeding decision. Again we each are entitled to our opinions.

That bolded last part is much more opinion than it is anything close to fact at this point and I'm trying to respond to that in a civil manner where I respect the right to have a point of view even if I don't necessarily agree with it. I tried to bite my tongue and stay out of the purity topic but I've got to the point where it's getting rather ridiculous some of the things certain people are trying to claim as fact when they have nothing but hearsay, rumors, and 3rd person accounts of without any published facts or data to back those claims. You are entitled to your opinion on the breed purity thing as is everyone but there has yet to be any conclusive or factual tests or data that has proven the impurity claims that some over on Hereford Talk have spun and twisted to the point of obsession. It's even more sad that for people who are breeding Herefords for a living some of those same people feel the need to take such a negative view and essentially devalue the very breed they claim they love, advance, and promote by constantly claiming the breed is impure. What I don't understand is how the same people who are saying that genomics are inaccurate and a waste of time and resources are the same ones clamoring for a reliable test for breed purity. If genomics are unreliable and inaccurate then how will we ever be able to trust the accuracy of a breed purity test using DNA if the same people calling for a purity test don't trust the science that goes into it? Same thing with those who think that breed associations need to go away, without a breed association to administrate registrations just how do you propose keeping breeders in check without a governing body to have checks and balances in place to make sure someone doesn't insert an outside breed into the registry without a set of rules and way to check parentage? It would become a much more relevant thing if the science behind a purity test was fail proof but until it is breeders are entitled to manage their programs in a manner they feel is in their best interests and deal with potential issues if and when a reliable purity test is proven to be accurate. Those programs that have stood the test of time and have had success didn't do it by being EPD chasers or following the latest show ring trends like some seem to thing is the dominate thinking within the breed. That's enough on the purity stuff, it's become this :deadhorse: to even debate it anymore with some people. It's a 1 sided discussion on Hereford Talk these days because the website owner has banned anyone who has a differing opinion than him so to even mention it as a reference doesn't hold much water because the conversation leans to a certain bias and at least here you aren't censored for having a different point of view and allowed to speak your mind.

I completely agree with you comments on environment factors. What works well for 1 guy in 1 area may not work for another in their area. And what kind of cattle breeders in your area can definitely dictate the value and market for certain cattle. You and I have had discussions on this how in your area the market doesn't seem as strong for Herefords but in our area the market is much stronger and we see more demand for Hereford bulls than some may in other areas. We aren't going to tell someone what they should or should not be breeding because guys are going to breed whatever they feel does the best for them, but we do hope they consider looking into the value a Hereford bull can add to a commercial herd or the hardiness and longevity a Hereford female adds as well.

Not sure that I have ever told you this previously Jay but it may surprise you that a long time back we did have some crossbred females in our herd before we eventually sent the last of them off to the sale barn either for temperament, open, or performance reasons. Had some black Angus, shorthorn, Saler, and Gelbvieh influence in those female that depending on the color of the female we'd cross with an Angus or Gelbvieh sire then turn out cleanup with our Hereford bull. Had some great calves out of those cows, temperament was the biggest negatives especially those with the mostly black Angus influence but they sure weaned a nice calf. A lot of the larger Hereford breeders we know or have visited usually have a pasture of commercial females - most of black Angus influence but also some other mixes - so they too are taking advantage of crossbreeding their Hereford bulls with commercial cows.

So Travis you are going to say that Titan was a pure Hereford? If so I'm not sure how much evidence you would need to convince you he wasn't. I haven't talked to another Hereford breeder that was around at that time that don't say he wasn't a crossbred. All of the issues associated with him and his progeny proved beyond a doubt that he was. I have talked to some commercial breeders who experienced issuses with cattle that went back to him and there were a few others also. I place more credence in what someone who was around and affected tells me than what someone who didn't have any stake or knowledge of a situation says. Like I've stated there is obvious crosses in the Angus breed also. I know Angus breeders who have told me certain bloodlines to stay away from. Putting your head in the sand and denying the obvious isn't helping the Hereford breed. The lack of uniformity and consistency along with off colors among Herefords is hurting them overall. Those from reputable breeders sell good but the others around here are docked heavy. As you know we purchased some Hereford heifers but had to do a lot of looking to find some we felt was pure. And you also know we have looked for a polled bull but can't find one without any Titan influence that is the quality we are looking for.

I can't say with confidence that he is or isn't but currently the facts are that he is a registered sire so until there is something factual and scientific that proves otherwise he and his descendants are part of the Hereford breed whether you agree with it or not. The fact that we have to DNA test for 3 known genetic defects in the breed is enough evidence there is probably impurity somewhere in the breed but currently no one has been able to bring to the table indisputable facts that a particular sire is impure so anyone making claims that certain sires are a certain percentage of Hereford is just careless and irresponsible. Not accepting facts and buying into mob mentality is more in line with having your head in the sand.

You and I have had many conversations publicly and privately so you know where I stand on this. We've used a Titan descendant in Revolution 4R quite a bit in our program and we've gotten more consistent results out of the 4R bloodlines than any sire we've used over the years. He's been used more than any sire in the breed recently so if the results were so inconsistent wouldn't his usage have gone down over the years instead of increased? His semen is getting more expensive and tougher to come by lately and his daughters are top producers in a lot of herds and expensive to buy when you find them for sale. Once again, every breeder has the freedom to choose their own path but no one is above anyone to tell someone the path they have chosen is the wrong one. I wish you the best with your cattle regardless if we ever see eye to eye on certain things.

 

[elkwc]

That bolded last part is much more opinion than it is anything close to fact at this point and I'm trying to respond to that in a civil manner where I respect the right to have a point of view even if I don't necessarily agree with it. I tried to bite my tongue and stay out of the purity topic but I've got to the point where it's getting rather ridiculous some of the things certain people are trying to claim as fact when they have nothing but hearsay, rumors, and 3rd person accounts of without any published facts or data to back those claims. You are entitled to your opinion on the breed purity thing as is everyone but there has yet to be any conclusive or factual tests or data that has proven the impurity claims that some over on Hereford Talk have spun and twisted to the point of obsession. It's even more sad that for people who are breeding Herefords for a living some of those same people feel the need to take such a negative view and essentially devalue the very breed they claim they love, advance, and promote by constantly claiming the breed is impure. What I don't understand is how the same people who are saying that genomics are inaccurate and a waste of time and resources are the same ones clamoring for a reliable test for breed purity. If genomics are unreliable and inaccurate then how will we ever be able to trust the accuracy of a breed purity test using DNA if the same people calling for a purity test don't trust the science that goes into it? Same thing with those who think that breed associations need to go away, without a breed association to administrate registrations just how do you propose keeping breeders in check without a governing body to have checks and balances in place to make sure someone doesn't insert an outside breed into the registry without a set of rules and way to check parentage? It would become a much more relevant thing if the science behind a purity test was fail proof but until it is breeders are entitled to manage their programs in a manner they feel is in their best interests and deal with potential issues if and when a reliable purity test is proven to be accurate. Those programs that have stood the test of time and have had success didn't do it by being EPD chasers or following the latest show ring trends like some seem to thing is the dominate thinking within the breed. That's enough on the purity stuff, it's become this :deadhorse: to even debate it anymore with some people. It's a 1 sided discussion on Hereford Talk these days because the website owner has banned anyone who has a differing opinion than him so to even mention it as a reference doesn't hold much water because the conversation leans to a certain bias and at least here you aren't censored for having a different point of view and allowed to speak your mind.

I completely agree with you comments on environment factors. What works well for 1 guy in 1 area may not work for another in their area. And what kind of cattle breeders in your area can definitely dictate the value and market for certain cattle. You and I have had discussions on this how in your area the market doesn't seem as strong for Herefords but in our area the market is much stronger and we see more demand for Hereford bulls than some may in other areas. We aren't going to tell someone what they should or should not be breeding because guys are going to breed whatever they feel does the best for them, but we do hope they consider looking into the value a Hereford bull can add to a commercial herd or the hardiness and longevity a Hereford female adds as well.

Not sure that I have ever told you this previously Jay but it may surprise you that a long time back we did have some crossbred females in our herd before we eventually sent the last of them off to the sale barn either for temperament, open, or performance reasons. Had some black Angus, shorthorn, Saler, and Gelbvieh influence in those female that depending on the color of the female we'd cross with an Angus or Gelbvieh sire then turn out cleanup with our Hereford bull. Had some great calves out of those cows, temperament was the biggest negatives especially those with the mostly black Angus influence but they sure weaned a nice calf. A lot of the larger Hereford breeders we know or have visited usually have a pasture of commercial females - most of black Angus influence but also some other mixes - so they too are taking advantage of crossbreeding their Hereford bulls with commercial cows.

So Travis you are going to say that Titan was a pure Hereford? If so I'm not sure how much evidence you would need to convince you he wasn't. I haven't talked to another Hereford breeder that was around at that time that don't say he wasn't a crossbred. All of the issues associated with him and his progeny proved beyond a doubt that he was. I have talked to some commercial breeders who experienced issuses with cattle that went back to him and there were a few others also. I place more credence in what someone who was around and affected tells me than what someone who didn't have any stake or knowledge of a situation says. Like I've stated there is obvious crosses in the Angus breed also. I know Angus breeders who have told me certain bloodlines to stay away from. Putting your head in the sand and denying the obvious isn't helping the Hereford breed. The lack of uniformity and consistency along with off colors among Herefords is hurting them overall. Those from reputable breeders sell good but the others around here are docked heavy. As you know we purchased some Hereford heifers but had to do a lot of looking to find some we felt was pure. And you also know we have looked for a polled bull but can't find one without any Titan influence that is the quality we are looking for.

I can't say with confidence that he is or isn't but currently the facts are that he is a registered sire so until there is something factual and scientific that proves otherwise he and his descendants are part of the Hereford breed whether you agree with it or not. The fact that we have to DNA test for 3 known genetic defects in the breed is enough evidence there is probably impurity somewhere in the breed but currently no one has been able to bring to the table indisputable facts that a particular sire is impure so anyone making claims that certain sires are a certain percentage of Hereford is just careless and irresponsible. Not accepting facts and buying into mob mentality is more in line with having your head in the sand.

You and I have had many conversations publicly and privately so you know where I stand on this. We've used a Titan descendant in Revolution 4R quite a bit in our program and we've gotten more consistent results out of the 4R bloodlines than any sire we've used over the years. He's been used more than any sire in the breed recently so if the results were so inconsistent wouldn't his usage have gone down over the years instead of increased? His semen is getting more expensive and tougher to come by lately and his daughters are top producers in a lot of herds and expensive to buy when you find them for sale. Once again, every breeder has the freedom to choose their own path but no one is above anyone to tell someone the path they have chosen is the wrong one. I wish you the best with your cattle regardless if we ever see eye to eye on certain things.

We are all entitled to our opinion and just because mine differs from yours don't make yours right and mine wrong. From your statements you are basically saying that anyone that disagrees with your views are wrong. You have a very small herd so your results may not represent the real world. I have talked to those who experienced the issues created by Titan. A prominent breeder in this region promoted him and his progeny. So there was a lot of it in the areas I frequent. Some breeders(both commercial and registered) experienced financial losses due to using his influence. IMO he is still registered because the Hereford association failed to do what was right and made decisions to benefit a few. Some of the known genetic defects go back to Titan. The facts are there if you have an open mind. I don't buy into mob mentality. You know I felt that way about Titan and one other sire way before the recent event. I do my own research and then make my decisions based on the best information I can find. Facts are why I have the opinion I do. It seems to be you that isn't accepting facts.

To clarify my views about Herefords I do feel there are still some basically pure options. Mostly on the horned side but also a few on the polled side. The ones on the polled side are too far from me or I would consider buying from them. One of them JMS is a poster on this forum.

 

[Caustic Burno]

The infamous green papered Herefords.

 

[SPH]

We are all entitled to our opinion and just because mine differs from yours don't make yours right and mine wrong. From your statements you are basically saying that anyone that disagrees with your views are wrong. You have a very small herd so your results may not represent the real world. I have talked to those who experienced the issues created by Titan. A prominent breeder in this region promoted him and his progeny. So there was a lot of it in the areas I frequent. Some breeders(both commercial and registered) experienced financial losses due to using his influence. IMO he is still registered because the Hereford association failed to do what was right and made decisions to benefit a few. Some of the known genetic defects go back to Titan. The facts are there if you have an open mind. I don't buy into mob mentality. You know I felt that way about Titan and one other sire way before the recent event. I do my own research and then make my decisions based on the best information I can find. Facts are why I have the opinion I do. It seems to be you that isn't accepting facts.

To clarify my views about Herefords I do feel there are still some basically pure options. Mostly on the horned side but also a few on the polled side. The ones on the polled side are too far from me or I would consider buying from them. One of them JMS is a poster on this forum.

That is not what I am doing at all, you are entitled to your opinion and we all have the freedom to make our own decisions based off what we want to and the results we all get will vary based off those same decisions. I am just pointing out that when it comes to questioning breed purity that the burden of proof falls more on the accusers and currently there is a lack of facts and science to back up some of the ridiculous claims that have been made. For instance I've seen someone post that they feel Warren Gammon had no clue what he was doing and the Polled Hereford is not a genetic mutation but an intentional crossbred using another breed to add the polled gene. Anyone who agrees or believes in such a statement like that then must believe that ALL Polled Herefords are nothing but impure Herefords then right? That's just 1 of many examples of some of the nonsense that gets posted as message board fodder that some apparently feel that the more they repeat it the more likely it must be true. Accusing certain breeders of dishonesty or intentionally bringing outside breeds into the registry without factual or scientific evidence is a careless thing for someone to be doing and as I have said before does nothing but delegitimize and devalue the very breed you say you and many others want to have promoted/marketed better and succeed yet being obsessed with talks of impurity is essentially working against yourself. The "I have talked to so-and-so or have heard this or that from people" lines does not mean something is necessarily factual. Published reports or research done that presents proof of something that has been confirmed and proven holds more fact-based merit than message board fodder and hearsay rumors. If that ever changes at some point to vindicate what some have always thought then so be it and those on the other side of the debate will have to make adjustments based off that.

We can agree to disagree, I know I'm not going to change your opinions but the 1 thing I do not approve of (and I am not accusing you of this) are the people who have gone out of their way to smear other programs and they cattle they breed. That is why the purity talk annoys me because no one deserves to have their program degraded and potentially hurting their ability to market their cattle by people they probably have never met or had interaction with them yet they seem to think it's ok to talk poorly of them or the genetics they are breeding by carelessly passing off opinions as facts. I regret even getting involved in this topic because it just turns into a never-ending loop of back and forth that goes no where as people have already drawn a line and which side they stand on it and nothing will likely change that.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Back in the 80s, lean beef was the thing. Everyone turned up their noses at angus and Hereford.. We had a very mixed herd back then, lots of old roping calves and show heifers....But, a big mix of everything.. We had brangus bulls which was the thing in our area in the 70s. But then went to sims in the 80s, because they were leaner yet huge.
Anywho, people decided they didn't like lean and we were left with big lean calves and giant cows...thus, the reason to mix in angus. Long story short, we've always eaten our own beef and I can say for sure out of all the calves over the years we've eaten (and we just pull them off at weaning with no feed) i'll say angus was best....Hated the lean beef, I felt like I was missing out with the beef we had to eat and once we had one slaughtered, we were stuck with it. I did like the lean burger best but you can control that somewhat, but dang those steaks were terrible in the leaner breeds.. Angus and Herefords marble better, and its that marble that makes them taste good. Its very simple to understand....

They have a heart doctor in Fort Worth telling his patients they can eat all the beef they want, so long as it is longhorn. A guy who bought a steer from me year after year is now wanting a LH steer. I can't provide that.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Back in the 80s, lean beef was the thing. Everyone turned up their noses at angus and Hereford.. We had a very mixed herd back then, lots of old roping calves and show heifers....But, a big mix of everything.. We had brangus bulls which was the thing in our area in the 70s. But then went to sims in the 80s, because they were leaner yet huge.
Anywho, people decided they didn't like lean and we were left with big lean calves and giant cows...thus, the reason to mix in angus. Long story short, we've always eaten our own beef and I can say for sure out of all the calves over the years we've eaten (and we just pull them off at weaning with no feed) i'll say angus was best....Hated the lean beef, I felt like I was missing out with the beef we had to eat and once we had one slaughtered, we were stuck with it. I did like the lean burger best but you can control that somewhat, but dang those steaks were terrible in the leaner breeds.. Angus and Herefords marble better, and its that marble that makes them taste good. Its very simple to understand....

They have a heart doctor in Fort Worth telling his patients they can eat all the beef they want, so long as it is longhorn. A guy who bought a steer from me year after year is now wanting a LH steer. I can't provide that.

surely they run a few through the stockyard there....

 

[kansascowboy]

Back to the original post......

Like a number of others, I was also banned. lol

 

[farmguy]

This is what got me banned. I thought maybe after months of bad mothing based on opinions I would add some unbiased real research. So I posted it. I was banned. But the moderator stated on the forum it was not because of the post but because I was so dumb I have Hereford in my name. I expect any day many more with Hereford in their handle will be banned, oh wait< that was a couple years ago. Everyone has a right to their ideas but I thought a forum was for discussion. thanks farmguy

http://www.beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_horned_vs_polled

 

[SPH]

I was a poster on that site for a few years before I was banned without warning or given a reason. I emailed the site owner when it happened and got no reply so the silence says plenty to me that he didn't have the decency to acknowledge it with a response. Many others have been banned there when they didn't share the same opinions of the about 5 to 10 guys who are the most active posters there any more. Hard to hold an open and civil discussion when anyone who likes polled cattle, has anything positive to say about AHA or the breed, or doesn't think the breed is full of a bunch of dishonest cheats usually gets banned. A lot of knowledgable and active long time posters got the boot about the same time earlier this year and it's said to see how negative the talk and views about the breed has become since that happened without people on both sides of topics and issues engaging in discussion.

When I first found that site I loved the discussion and all the photos and story sharing guys did and I got a lot of useful info out of it. Now I'm disappointed to see so much anger and negativity there that isn't doing a lot of good to represent and promote the breed. I know some of them post or read here and someone even started a post there today that I'm sure is referencing this very thread. Don't really care if they like what some here are saying or not because the thread probably wouldn't even exist right now had they not banned a lot of good people who deserve to have their views and opinions heard and discussed just as much as theirs are.

I am so glad this site exists as there is such a broad and diverse group of people here who for the most part are respectful and civil to each other and engage in discussions respectful that not everyone may agree with them.

 

[Son of Butch]

Joe Consumer will buy Choice grade certified angus over prime.

Joe Consumer doesn't have that option as prime is so rare it is only consistently available at high end restaurants,
high end grocers or from a specialized butcher shop.

 

[Bullitt]

Joe Consumer will buy Choice grade certified angus over prime.

Joe Consumer doesn't have that option as prime is so rare it is only consistently available at high end restaurants,
high end grocers or from a specialized butcher shop.

I remember some years back the meat cutters at a Walmart in Florida voted to unionize, and the meat cutters at another Walmart in Texas were about to vote on unionization. Walmart decided to fire all the meat cutters and start selling pre-packaged meat that was shipped to the stores. Walmart management said it was just a coincidence that the meat cutters were voting on unions, because Walmart was planning this move to pre-packaged meat for a long time. I am sure it is just a coincidence.

It seems half of Americans shop at Walmart stores. The quality of meat at Walmart stores is not very good, so many Americans do not have the opportunity to get high-quality meat even if they wanted to buy it. Consumers have to really want quality meat and seek it out, possibly at a butcher shop, as was stated. But there are not many butcher shops around any longer.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Joe Consumer will buy Choice grade certified angus over prime.

Joe Consumer doesn't have that option as prime is so rare it is only consistently available at high end restaurants,
high end grocers or from a specialized butcher shop.

SOB around here most if not all butcher shops and meat narkets sell Choice and Select grades. Both are good if properly aged. There was one market that tried selling some prime grade beef but quit because it wouldn't move. I bought some after it was narked dowm 60% because it wouldn't move. IMO the CHB beef is the best. It is very good amd doesn't have the excess fat I find sometimes on CAB.

Yep,,some of those cuts have plenty of marbling,,,in reverse...plenty of white with flecks of red.. :cowboy:

 

[backhoeboogie]

It seems half of Americans shop at Walmart stores. The quality of meat at Walmart stores is not very good, so many Americans do not have the opportunity to get high-quality meat even if they wanted to buy it. Consumers have to really want quality meat and seek it out, possibly at a butcher shop, as was stated. But there are not many butcher shops around any longer.

But Walmart has certified angus. Even certified angus hot dogs!

Certified angus is not quality ? LMAO

I can get prime cuts from HEB. Now that HEB has come to town Kroger is trying to compete and they now carry prime as well.

1 steer a year is not enough to feed us all. So when prime goes on sell I stock up on the best steak cuts. Sirloin is usually me best bargain. T Bone and Rib Eye are in high demand. Sirloin is a good cut if it is prime and it is a bargain at times because people pass on it.

It may be wasteful, but I buy prime if I buy.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Joe Consumer will buy Choice grade certified angus over prime.

Joe Consumer doesn't have that option as prime is so rare it is only consistently available at high end restaurants,
high end grocers or from a specialized butcher shop.

Costco carries prime cuts of beef and its well worth the up charge.

 

[Son of Butch]

Joe Consumer will buy Choice grade certified angus over prime.

Joe Consumer doesn't have that option as prime is so rare it is only consistently available at high end restaurants,
high end grocers or from a specialized butcher shop.

Costco carries prime cuts of beef and its well worth the up charge.

Yes it is, current Costco special....
$200 off 12 lbs of A-5 Wagyu Ribeye Roast reg. $1299.99 (108.33 lb) your cost only $1,099.99 ($91.66 lb)
I'm sure it would be great for Christmas dinner or other special occasions.

Last night my brother made a steak from a home raised Wagyu influenced steer (Wagyu x Angus) seasoned with
garlic salt and pepper. He gave me a piece to taste, so tender, it was marvelous.