Greg Judy and Profit per Acre

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Why is that?

Each and every one of us has a different management system.
It is hard to believe if his pastures has good growth that it would be good to let them "rest" for 3-4 months - mine would have mature weeds that the cowherd would not clip down. Also, you said "Greg Judy doesn't give many shots, and doesn't pour". I took that to mean very little vaccinations and no deworming.
These things do not fit my idea of a good management system - but that's MY opinion.

I calve spring (Jan & Feb - so actually winter) and fall (Sept & Oct. My fall cows are in tremendous shape at calving - almost too fat for my taste. So I can understand how your cattle work well for you calving in September. Calves get up & going before bad weather hits.
I calve in Jan & Feb to avoid our March/April cold rains & MUD. By the time March rolls around, my calves know where their shed/protection is located. Know where to avoid the bad mud areas.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Me thinks Jeanne is growing sour on Greg Judy, Kit Pharo and those of the more cow per acre mindset because Jeanne is in the business
of selling what is becoming known in the grazing industry as diesel burners. I picked up on this immediately with ''Kit Pharo, I haven't heard
that name in years,,,,I wonder what he's preaching now ect ect'' Believe me when I say the purveyors of 4 color advertising with show cattle
pictures of ribbon covered behemoths are quaking in their boots. If we, as an industry are going to survive, it will be with low cost production.

We are in the position today of going over the cliff with the rest of the lemmings by doing what is clearly not working as it did in the past
or taking 'the road less travelled'. The low cost high production per acre cowman has a chance of surviving what we are facing in the
market today. Those following the more conventional path will need to consider other options.

 

[sstterry]

That is actually a great idea.....I've been wanting to do that for a long time, just haven't.

I was wrong, the birds are tree swallows.

 

[KAstocker]

His normal rotation is 60 days but fluctuates with the seasons. He doesn't have to pour because the cattle that need poured get culled. I would call that superior management to those that pour cattle regardless if they need it or not. He can do that since he rotates so often and let's the place rest. He may use some natural pour like vinegar or something. Not sure, but some regenerative folks do. Most dewormers kill dung beetles, which build soil.

A big piece of regenerative ag is getting cattle to work for you, not always working for them.

 

[chaded]

I was wrong, the birds are tree swallows.

We dont have many tree swallows at my place but we have A LOT of barn swallows and i can say they follow the cows on their moves and are constantly eating flies.

 

[Silver]

I like this quote:
No one breed or size category of cattle excels in all traits or is most efficient in all environments. Any "one size fits all" approach will result in un-captured profit, and therefore suboptimal efficiency. The question of efficiency needs to be discussed in the context of a specific system, which requires careful analysis of the environment, market, and goals of that system.

From UNDERSTANDING COW SIZE AND EFFICIENCY Jennifer J. Johnson1 , Barry H. Dunn2 , and J.D. Radakovich1 1 Texas A&M University-Kingsville and 2 South Dakota State University

It's a good read. http://bifconference.com/bif2010/documents/08_johnson_radakovich.pdf

 

[sstterry]

We dont have many tree swallows at my place but we have A LOT of barn swallows and i can say they follow the cows on their moves and are constantly eating flies.

If you put houses up, the tree swallows may come. You are in the breeding range. But full disclosure, I do not do this (at least yet). But it is interesting.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Thanks for the ND link. Obviously feed costs have come up since 1992, but my area does seem to have a lot of alfalfa/grass mix "heifer hay", that would work with summer or fall calving pairs.

I think buying "late" June/early July calving cows might beat both March and September calving. I think taking these June/July calves back to grass will pay well for the next 3 to 4 years.

 

[anewcomer]

Lee, great post. Thank you.

 

[Stocker Steve]

If we, as an industry are going to survive, it will be with low cost production.

Or
- by selling for a premium
- by increasing turns
- by a combination of the above

Looks like much higher grain prices are squeezing the feed lots for the next two to three years. This is a great time to make some changes.

 

[BlueCollarCattle]

Kit Pharo - haven't heard that name in years. Used to see his name pop up every where. People bought into his program buying his tiny bulls. That faded out quickly. don't know what he is preaching now, but back then he had like 2.5 - 3 frame bulls.
@Rydero you are spot on. I don't know what research people are quoting, because the more recent things I have read are backing away from the "small" cow theory - ie small cows, more cows = more weaned pounds. More cows is more labor - period. Labor has to account for a lot on your farm. Bigger cows don't eat more on a linear basis. It's not like an 800# cow eats 1/2 as much as a 1600# cow.
There are a lot of farms that could not handle the size of my cows (average around 1550#). My farm grows grass - a lot of grass. I rotate daily in the early spring, then gradually go to 3-5 days. I have neighbors ask how I get my pastures so clean looking.
Of course, my money is not made by pounds of calf. So, I am in a different situation. But, my steers are my cash flow and I sure wouldn't have the feedlot buyer begging for my steers if they were dinks.

Kit is still around. Selling a lot of bulls. A lot. The fad hasn't changed. It's actually increasing to more moderate frame animal more than before. Maybe not to the extreme as Kit. A breeder we visited with yesterday quoted one of the Big packers as wanting smaller framed lighter cattle. Less time on feed. Finish faster. Etc

 

[KAstocker]

I read an article probably a year ago about some recent University of Missouri research stating the consumer is demanding smaller steaks. The past few decades, the packers have been wanting bigger carcasses because it's more efficient for them.

 

[gcreekrch]

Get a set of scales. People think tall means heavy, short means light weight. Muscle and volume indicates weight more than height. Legs don't weigh much, especially when they have a gutless wonder on the top of them.
Your formula about 100 cows vs 140 cows, also doesn't take into consideration the salvage value. A lot of a farms income is cull income.
I believe @Silver mentioned: He only has so much labor for so many cows. Each COW requires a certain amount of labor and expense. You have to work a small cow just exactly as often as a large cow. You have to vaccinate just as much - and most vaccinations are not based on weight. Antibiotics and deworming does. Time is money.

Difference in salvage value is eaten up in extra feed over a cow's lifetime so I have never considered it an important issue unless an operator is doing what Dave is.

 

[bird dog]

Packers want uniform mid sized animals. Uniform carcasses produce uniform cuts to fit the boxes sold to the restaurant and grocery business. Sure their are some high dollar restaurants that want big cuts but they are the minority. If a Texas Roadhouse type eatery has 8 oz steaks are their menu, you can bet every one in the box they buy will be very close to that weight.
If the packing plant employee has a steak they weighs 10 oz, it will be trimmed to match the box size. The rest goes to burger.

A good calf buyer wants moderation. They don't want the ones that finish out to big nor to small.

For my area. the 1100 to 1200 lb cow weaning off a 650 lb calf seems to work best. I can wean them for 45 days and they will be hardened 725lb'ers ready to go to the feed lot.

 

[Dave]

I know that here you just don't see many cows over 1,300 pounds and ones under 1,000 are real rare. The vast majority are those 1,100 to 1.200 pound cows. Get to the east in the Treasure Valley area and you will find cows weighing 1,500- 1,600. But they live in irrigated pastures. The 82 out in my pasture averaged 1,219. There is about 3 or 4 that weigh in the 1,400 range and about the same number that weigh 1,000. These cows came from all over western Idaho and eastern Oregon and I think they are a pretty good cross section of cows from this part of the world.

 

[RDFF]

As I recall, he puts up Martin houses (or some bird) in the pastures to help control the fly population.

Tree Swallows.

 

[Muletrack]

Thanks for the ND link. Obviously feed costs have come up since 1992, but my area does seem to have a lot of alfalfa/grass mix "heifer hay", that would work with summer or fall calving pairs.

I think buying "late" June/early July calving cows might beat both March and September calving. I think taking these June/July calves back to grass will pay well for the next 3 to 4 years.

Yes, I am considering buying some one-and-done late calvers. And yes, the North Dakota data is very old now. I mentioned that to Kevin Sedevec, interim director at the NDSU Central Grasslands Research Extension Center, a couple of weeks ago. CGREC no longer maintains the fall-calving herd, but I wish they did. There is so little information about fall calving in the north country, but it works best for me. Another NDSU friend, a retired animal scientist, scoffs at all this talk about regenerative talk. Says there's a lot of preaching going on, but not a lot of data. Well, duh, they are the one's who are dropping the ball on data! North Dakota doesn't even have a million brood cows and all the university people seem to push is how "we gotta get more feedlots going."

 

[Muletrack]

Yes, I am considering buying some one-and-done late calvers. And yes, the North Dakota data is very old now. I mentioned that to Kevin Sedevec, interim director at the NDSU Central Grasslands Research Extension Center, a couple of weeks ago. CGREC no longer maintains the fall-calving herd, but I wish they did. There is so little information about fall calving in the north country, but it works best for me. Another NDSU friend, a retired animal scientist, scoffs at all this talk about regenerative talk. Says there's a lot of preaching going on, but not a lot of data. Well, duh, they are the one's who are dropping the ball on data! North Dakota doesn't even have a million brood cows and all the university people seem to push is how "we gotta get more feedlots going."

Feed costs surely are different than in the 90's, but we didn't have the co-products that we have available today either. There was very little corn, so no stover fields, and certainly no DDGS.

 

[Muletrack]

Each and every one of us has a different management system.
It is hard to believe if his pastures has good growth that it would be good to let them "rest" for 3-4 months - mine would have mature weeds that the cowherd would not clip down. Also, you said "Greg Judy doesn't give many shots, and doesn't pour". I took that to mean very little vaccinations and no deworming.
These things do not fit my idea of a good management system - but that's MY opinion.

I calve spring (Jan & Feb - so actually winter) and fall (Sept & Oct. My fall cows are in tremendous shape at calving - almost too fat for my taste. So I can understand how your cattle work well for you calving in September. Calves get up & going before bad weather hits.
I calve in Jan & Feb to avoid our March/April cold rains & MUD. By the time March rolls around, my calves know where their shed/protection is located. Know where to avoid the bad mud areas.

These guys say that the parasite load is low because of the frequent moves (and that running mixed sheep and cattle, further decreases the parasite load), and that pouring cattle kills the beneficial bugs on the ground (the dung beetles that Walt Davis is constantly talking about). Judy and others looking at the holistic model are considering the microbiology in the soil and calling themselves "microbe farmers" -- Gabe Brown's book, Dirt to Soil, goes into some detail on this.

 

[Muletrack]

Thanks for the ND link. Obviously feed costs have come up since 1992, but my area does seem to have a lot of alfalfa/grass mix "heifer hay", that would work with summer or fall calving pairs.

I think buying "late" June/early July calving cows might beat both March and September calving. I think taking these June/July calves back to grass will pay well for the next 3 to 4 years.

"Heifer hay." I guess that's what a mainly have. Older alfalfa stands with quite a bit of brome. I interseeded some with two kinds of wheat grass and meadow brome this summer and planing to turn it to pasture. Hay is a problem. North Dakota has the cheapest hay in the country, so there aren't a lot of guys raising it as a cash crop. Corn/Soy/Federal Crop Insurance is the typical rotation here.