Greg Judy and Profit per Acre
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RDFF
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Build it, and they will come...I'd love to buy dung beetles and see if I could establish them here. They provide a huge net benefit to the soil and regenerative practices. They existed here years ago but it didn't take long of ivermectin overuse to eradicate the population. Don't know anyone within 4 hours that has any. The NRCS office said they haven't been around for 50 years...then again the NRCS office told me managed grazing doesn't help much
RDFF
Well-known member
I've heard Jonathan Lundgren present a number of times. If you don't know who he is, look him up. One thing that I remember prominently from at least one of his presentations is that there are many species of dung beetles... They're not only the ones that are as big as a large June bug that end up rolling up a ball of dung larger than they are. How do you know if you have them? Look at your manure pats. Do you see holes all over in the crust? Then you've got dung beetles... THEY are the ones that create all those holes, and they ALL are advantageous to the functioning of your system. Don't worry about WHICH species of them that you have, just build an environment that they can flourish in, and they WILL come. How? STOP using insecticides... on your fields, AND on (and in) your cattle. That's the toughest one to accomplish for most, especially if you're used to using a pour-on... or fly control in your feed or mineral. Beyond that, "good pasture management", as in, regenerative farming practices, where you are actively seeking creation of a "home" where biological diversity thrives, will also create a "home" for these.... and they WILL come.
Build it and they will come:
https://www.capjournal.com/news/tak...cle_6699841e-55d5-11e5-bef5-2fa441a0188d.html
Different species of dung beetles...:
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1365-2664.2012.02210.x
Build it and they will come:
https://www.capjournal.com/news/tak...cle_6699841e-55d5-11e5-bef5-2fa441a0188d.html
Different species of dung beetles...:
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1365-2664.2012.02210.x
Silver
Well-known member
I honestly don't know if dung beetles make it this far north. Never seen one anyway. But horn flies will make holes all over the crust of manure pats.
Unfortunately that's not true here. With how dry it is and how cold and windy it gets they already have a hard time thriving. Ivermectin wrecks havoc on a dung beetle population when you use it in the growing season and IGR can harm them too. I don't use IGR and I only deworm once it gets so cold that they would be dormant. Many others around here use it like it's going out of style.
I'm 100% sure there's no dung beetles within 30 miles, so no matter how good my management practices are, I'm not going to have a magic migration. I'll have to buy and bring them in and hope they survive.
Rydero
Well-known member
It should be possible. We definitely have them, I see them all the time in the summer.
I do believe that everything we need is already present in the soils. Its all been there for thousands upon thousands of years.
Speaking on nutrients replenishing via soil biology. I do think it happens. It has to. Time scale unknown. You have long deep roots, you have long shallow roots. Tree roots. All roots. Add in soil bacteria and mycelium. You have a perfect community in which they share water and nutrients. Can transport it great distances to how i understand it.
Most soils are so rough theyve not seen mycelium in a long time.
Any of you test for available "organic" nitrogen in soil? I believe the Haney soil test looks at organic forns.
Speaking on nutrients replenishing via soil biology. I do think it happens. It has to. Time scale unknown. You have long deep roots, you have long shallow roots. Tree roots. All roots. Add in soil bacteria and mycelium. You have a perfect community in which they share water and nutrients. Can transport it great distances to how i understand it.
Most soils are so rough theyve not seen mycelium in a long time.
Any of you test for available "organic" nitrogen in soil? I believe the Haney soil test looks at organic forns.
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Muletrack
Well-known member
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Have a quarter of native pasture that I rent to a neighbor because my numbers are down. Might be a good place to put some late breds -- if I can buy them really, really cheap. My experience of buying these types of cows just to increase number has not been good. But a later winter cull date means putting some hay into them.
Rydero
Well-known member
Nature's timetable and idea of productivity can't be relied upon all by itself. There's natural systems that are in balance and not very productive by farming standards. Yes there's nutrients to be obtained in natural ways and it absolutely makes sense if you supply them in excess anything that makes it's living supplying that nutrient will die out. I think steps have to be taken to kickstart and trick nature into doing what we want it to do though. A lot of regenerative talk focusses on crop land and all the damage done to it through farming practices. But cattle farms have lots of land not subjected to those practices. Land that's possibly never been tilled, never been sprayed with herbicides or pesticides and never had chemical fertilizer applied - pasture. If all we had to do is leave nature alone wouldn't well managed pasture land be the best land around? As someone who has returned pasture land to cover crops etc and soil tests I can tell you in my case aside from land I fed extensively the soil is as deficient as crop/hayland.
I have 3 fields that has had the Haney test done as part of a program and will continue to have it done as long as I continue to grow covers. It's interesting and will be even more so over time as changes occur. It should save some fertilizer on the fields I'll be applying on.
FungusProudKY31
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If you want "natural" and natural restoration then your true datum is what the particular soil type was/is like without disturbance. 100+ years of cotton plus erosion or even cutting timber or hay crops alter the natural. In our old clay type soils just removing the tree crop removes most P and with 2 crops of plantation pines there is little P left. Think in terms of a total 7 to 12 pounds of P2O5/acre remaining. That ought to make the crops jump! So you either cripple along at low nutrient type production for 20 to 30 years to begin to restore or you add some chicken litter or other nutrients to jump start the process and see some decent production before they wheel you out toes up.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
High OM tall grass prairie soils are way different than thin woodland soils which are different than sand. So you need to understand the gross margins possible for your situation and manage them accordingly.
I have some virgin woodland soil, and it has about a 50% more OM than the intensively farm soil next to it, but yes - - while the fertility is better it is still modest by today's corn/bean/alfalfa standards. So I don't plant improved seed unless I have bale grazed those acres recently.
The underlying issue is that many modern "improved" plants have been selected to preform well with very very high soluble nutrient levels. So we often plant unnatural seed that needs unnatural chemistry. The current end point is to put a center pivot on some gravel and apply soluble fertilizer every pass.
I have some virgin woodland soil, and it has about a 50% more OM than the intensively farm soil next to it, but yes - - while the fertility is better it is still modest by today's corn/bean/alfalfa standards. So I don't plant improved seed unless I have bale grazed those acres recently.
The underlying issue is that many modern "improved" plants have been selected to preform well with very very high soluble nutrient levels. So we often plant unnatural seed that needs unnatural chemistry. The current end point is to put a center pivot on some gravel and apply soluble fertilizer every pass.
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Peace
Well-known member
By today's standards is what most of the intensive grazing guys are trying to get away from, or prove aren't needed. The modern method isn't really all that far away from the gravel with a pivot and nutrients at every pass in many parts of the west.
The only issue I see is it's pretty difficult to feed the masses on the systems that Judy implements. It's fine for a niche market, but how much land would he need to use with his systems to feed the city of St Louis or Kansas City? I don't know and won't do the math, but I'm guessing it would probably take a massive chunk of the farmland in the state of Missouri to feed both cities beef with his methods.
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Rydero
Well-known member
It has a lot of info previous soil tests don't have - soil carbon levels, info about the soil microbiology - predator vs prey species, info about mycorrhizal fungi levels etc. From a practical standpoint because they measure the nitrogen differently one field for instance they say I can add 56 lbs/acre less nitrogen than a conventional test would call for. They also give a soil health calculation and what % grass vs legume balance you should plant.
Since I'm not overly familiar with what everything means and those 3 fields I've only been harvesting by grazing and planting cover crops I'm mostly interested in how things change over the years.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Perimeter fence CRP
Cross fence continuously grazing pasture
Maybe even burn some more rain forest
We have plenty of land, just not enough good grass managers.
If you step back a little, what is really in demand, is grain to produce more white meat in Asia. Beef is a luxury item so we should be more like Greg - -charging a high price.
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Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Soil Scientists are just like Cow Consultants in that they need a new theme every couple years to sell books and keep consulting. Cow Consultants have it easier since they can usually use weight or weight ratios to prove their point. Soil Scientists are usually phd data dogs who don't buy into the traditional chemical tests - - so they have to come up with new biological tests.
The Haney is one of many new biological tests. The hard question is what do you do with the data? Has it improved your operation? The typical response is no, but some can point to reducing the amount of N they apply.
Grant money guys dug 15 soil pits on my place last fall and collected a pallet of samples. I am still waiting for their soil scientist to write her report. I'll let you know what I do with it.
What happens when the corn & soybean farmers try to switch to regenerative agriculture? Seems like they would have to add ruminants to their operation sooner or later. Add that to a population of city folk that is told to eat less meat and beef in particular.
On the birds to eat flies: how many boxes do you need to build and erect per how many acres? Purple Martins are the main swallow type around here - they leave in early July. That's not a big help in the worst of times. Poles and gourds or artificial gourds are not cheap, martin houses are an English Sparrow and Starling magnet. Barn swallows are around but do you need to build more barns to have more swallows?
Jafruech, where are you and what type of soil do you have? NCSU and others have info on dung beetles and some depends on soil type. There is a type in Louisiana that is not in SC. The LA ones are attracted to lights and when they die at the base of the lights by the sidewalk in fair numbers they smell too much like their diet! Phew-w-w-! I am sure there is some literature out there on how to have more or some.
Sandy Loam...or in the case of this last years drought...lots of blowsand lol
Peace
Well-known member
I grew up in dairy in the late 70's and early 80's in Wis. Milk prices were mostly crap and since the prices were crap most farmers, us included, added more cows to increase cash flow. Never mind that it still costs the same to feed them per head and the same 2 cents per hundred profit, maybe, didn't really help because with all the added supply just made the cheese and milk producers more picky about who they bought supply from after they dropped the prices, again and again. It's the usual thinking that caused so many of them to either disappear or be bought out. So the 50 to 100 cow dairies became 300 and 500 cow dairies, or more. Some of the smart ones actually sold their cows, built roads on their farmland and sold it an acre at a time. Took advantage of the flight from Milwaukee.
Commercial white meat, chickens, is the worst. Those giant houses with 1000 birds that eat 10% meds with their food aren't what I call good food, but it's what they do. It's that more with less thinking, and I'm not so sure that's a positive.
Many of the little pasture farmers, people with 10 to 50 acres, that are direct marketing will usually state they actually make money with their poultry, chickens, eggs and turkeys. Every one if them is buying the feed and then running those 8'x4' wire cages on grass for fryers (tractors is what they call them). The cloth/wire fence around a hen house for the layers and the same setup minus the hen house but adding a roost hut for the turkeys. They're moving the fryers daily and the others daily or up to every 3rd day. Many of them move the layers onto the ground the cattle grazed 2 days after the cattle have left for fly control. It must work with as many people that do it. Most or many seem to be skipping the cattle all together, but they're butchering all the birds themselves and then selling them to their customers.
I'm thinking that's probably a pretty good management method for their land, they add the inputs with the manure and waste, give it a good rest and let the sun reinvigorate the grass and soil...let the worms and insects do their thing and keep on rotating. The one input they can't get around is the feed,and they're feeding tons of it. Some of them a few gravity wagons a month. They have to be doing something right.
I'm of the opinion that they're doing it better than most of the commercial ag, inputs and more inputs to make dollars per acre vs limited inputs and hundreds of dollars per acre.
