Yup. Sometimes more than a year of rest My cows were on my lease ground all year...my owned ground had nothing on it from Feb-Dec. Nothing grew. I mean nothing. Not even a weed. Pulled the cows back off lease ground and am bale grazing my owned ground like crazy. Hopefully it will help to hold in some moisture and soak in the manure and urine before it all blows away. And hopefully we get rain this year
Greg Judy and Profit per Acre
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Yup. Sometimes more than a year of rest My cows were on my lease ground all year...my owned ground had nothing on it from Feb-Dec. Nothing grew. I mean nothing. Not even a weed. Pulled the cows back off lease ground and am bale grazing my owned ground like crazy. Hopefully it will help to hold in some moisture and soak in the manure and urine before it all blows away. And hopefully we get rain this year
Weight is only one side of it. It only gives you a rough estimation. Genetics is just as important if not more so.
In any species, including humans, you have ones that are the exact same weight with vastly different maintenance requirements. Kind of funny when you think about the fact that we want the opposite in cattle as we want in humans. Most of us look at the guy that eating 5 mcdoubles at lunch and wish we could do that without turning into the blob...but we want our cows to get fat just looking at grass lol.
2 cows of the same weight with different feed efficiency will have very different maintenance requirements....and we could make it even more complicated by adding in milk production...the first time I saw how much dairy cattle eat dropped my jaw.
You have to find the right balance between moderate frame, milk production, feed efficiency, health, fertility, longevity, disposition, etc ..for your program.... your goals.. your environment. Guys who calve in Feb here are idiots. It doesn't green up here till May half the time. And there's always a big snowstorm in March. I watched guys after the March "bomb cyclone" in 2019 that had 95mph wind and roof tall snowdrifts hauling dead calves out for weeks as the snow melted. Several dead cows too.
But if I lived where there is wet and cold mud...I would probably calve in a different time. It's all based on where you are. If you are in fescue country you have completely different considerations too.
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I don't believe in extremes in either direction...but I believe you can take find a middle ground that performs well.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Calving date effect on feed cost is important. The other big calving date cost effect is on breed back. There has been a lot of data published on this in recent years, often expressed as how soon cows start to cycle after calving.
Rising corn prices make these two effects very timely topics.
Rising corn prices make these two effects very timely topics.
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I think about this often. No joking here, but I eat enough to sustain 3 people. And i still wear 32x32's. I'd hate to have a herd of me. But the production from that feed is worth the input I will have to say. Hahaha
I will say one thing, Greg had mentioned opening a newspaper under a cow. If you can do so, according to him, thats too much leg. That has stuck with me since I heard it. And I've been applying it. Doesnt necessarily mean focus on leg length, but depth of body/gut.
Ive been selecting for minimal space between naval and the ground. As per Greg, it has to do with their guts are where all the work happens. So you want a large gut. It makes sense to me. And ive been using that as one of my focal points in retaining anything.
So im saying its a ratio type deal. Distance from gut to the ground Moreso than length of the leg.
Have to bare with me. I'm not as articulate as a lot of you.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Good article Silver - here is the conclusion of the article for those that didn't read it: "Conclusion Efficiency in animal production is a measure of input costs to total animal product. Determining the right size of cow for any specific production system necessitates understanding how beef industry segmentation affects the interaction of biological and economic efficiency. Antagonisms exist between ideal genetic traits at different stages in the chain of cattle production, and in different environments. Maintenance energy should not be confused with efficiency and must be calculated and discussed in terms of the animal's metabolic weight. Improving efficiency requires measurement, and though popular, literature does not support calf weight/cow weight as a better measurement of efficiency than weaning weight. Improving efficiency of a cowherd through culling is ineffective compared to prudent bull selection. Market end points have a profound impact on efficiency. For the majority of cow calf producers in the nation, the most efficient cow is the one with the highest milk potential that can, without reducing the percentage of calves successfully weaned, repeatedly produce a calf by bulls with the growth and carcass characteristics valued most in the marketplace. Size, of cow, through the biology of metabolic weight, should dictate herd size, and optimal herd size varies with the cost structure of a specific production system. "
Show cattle - yup - I show cattle - as advertising. But my cows work for me. I run about 50 head of cows on grass and hay with no other income except the cows. I keep them in a 60 day calving season (Jan/Fed) and (Sept/Oct) - 100% AI. Two calving seasons because it gives me better age selection for sales. We won't talk the profit I make from heifers - just steers. I sell a couple each year as "pick" for show steers for $1500. I sell the rest to a private feedlot - sight unseen. Takes any number I will sell to him. Sometimes a dozen, sometimes 20+. 2018 got $961/hd on 10-9-18, 2019 got $1043/hd on 10-11-19, 2020 got $1024/hd on 10-16-20 - all weaned and pre-conditioned. Buys all the steers from my bull buyers. Says he loves my steers because he MAKES MONEY on them.
We can debate cow size forever. We all have our own biased opinions. Bottom line, we have to raise what we can make the most money for the least input. For me - more cows means more labor. No thank you.
Here's another good article worth your time to read:
www.beefmagazine.com
@ClinchValley86 - exactly. I like "sow-belly" cows. Height is not important, it's volume. A cow has to be able to eat what she needs in only roughage. A gutless wonder cannot do that, they need grain suppliment.
I keep up on industry research for my newsletters. I don't believe in one size fits all. I believe in getting what works for your environment and will make you money.
Show cattle - yup - I show cattle - as advertising. But my cows work for me. I run about 50 head of cows on grass and hay with no other income except the cows. I keep them in a 60 day calving season (Jan/Fed) and (Sept/Oct) - 100% AI. Two calving seasons because it gives me better age selection for sales. We won't talk the profit I make from heifers - just steers. I sell a couple each year as "pick" for show steers for $1500. I sell the rest to a private feedlot - sight unseen. Takes any number I will sell to him. Sometimes a dozen, sometimes 20+. 2018 got $961/hd on 10-9-18, 2019 got $1043/hd on 10-11-19, 2020 got $1024/hd on 10-16-20 - all weaned and pre-conditioned. Buys all the steers from my bull buyers. Says he loves my steers because he MAKES MONEY on them.
We can debate cow size forever. We all have our own biased opinions. Bottom line, we have to raise what we can make the most money for the least input. For me - more cows means more labor. No thank you.
Here's another good article worth your time to read:
Cow-Calf Operation recent news | Beef Magazine
Explore the latest news and expert commentary on Cow-Calf Operation brought to you by the editors of Beef Magazine
@ClinchValley86 - exactly. I like "sow-belly" cows. Height is not important, it's volume. A cow has to be able to eat what she needs in only roughage. A gutless wonder cannot do that, they need grain suppliment.
I keep up on industry research for my newsletters. I don't believe in one size fits all. I believe in getting what works for your environment and will make you money.
Little Joe
Well-known member
Most of us here in Arkansas calve March-May or Sept.-Nov. I think the south poll people have done a good job selecting cattle that perform well with very little inputs and adaptable to their enviroment. There are some in the breed that might be too small but most are a moderate type cow. I think they'd do good with a terminal Angus bull on them. I'm not much further south than Greg Judy and a similar enviroment and I think south polls or beefmaster or a combination of the two would work best here. The south polls were actually developed in Alabama by Teddy Gentry of the band Alabama. Just like foundation beefmasters, they perform well in the heat and humidity of the south, perform well on fescue, are long living and producing, and disease and insect resistant, and are gentle. Both breeds pretty much check all of the boxes for my enviroment. Run a good terminal black angus bull on them and you'll have good marketable calves. I've been looking at heifers from both breeds,it's hard to pay what most are wanting for quality heifers when you can go to the sale barn and buy a good cow/calf pair for the same price and know you have a live calf now. But with sale barn cattle come a variety of problems from time to time.
@Jeanne - Simme Valley - No way anyone has everything worked out in a way that will work everywhere. Thats 100 percent. Ive picked things from all of you and applied it to our farm. Cannot thank this community enough.
This thread has been a good one. And hopefully not turn into a heated debate.
This thread has been a good one. And hopefully not turn into a heated debate.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Oh - and I totally believe in putting up bird houses for tree swallows and I have tons of barn swallows. We put up extra little boards in our barn to entice them to make nests. They eat LOTS of bugs. i had an entomologist come out to "prove" I could have better management. Funny, he could not prove anything. I had LOTS of dung beetles, had no fly larvae in my barn (we put lime down in our pens). He set up fly traps trying to catch flies while he gave his presentation for a group at my farm. He only caught a few. He was amazed at my management success.
I am not trying to brag or preach - just pointing out that we all have to do what works best for YOUR SYSTEM, with the least cost input to make the most $$$$.
I am not trying to brag or preach - just pointing out that we all have to do what works best for YOUR SYSTEM, with the least cost input to make the most $$$$.
BFE
Well-known member
Fescue country. That brings something up where Greg and I are exactly on the same page. Buy animals that will thrive on fescue if that's what you have, don't go chasing big unproven names in a book. What works in Montana may or may not work here.
Where's Ebenezer when we need him? He's an unapologetic KY31 man with a lot of knowledge on the "fit for your environment not the other way around" camp.
Little Joe
Well-known member
In my part of the country our main grass base is fescue or bermuda or a combo of the 2 with a little byhalia, crabgraass and dallisgrass mixed in. If you have cattle that perform on fescue you can't hardly beat it, do like Kenny Thomas and stock pile it and you'll have to feed very little hay. Fescue does well here early March-end of June then again September-December. The warm season grasses don't do much until late April and play out early October so fescue is your best bet as long as you select cattle that do well on it. Dilute the fescue with clovers and you're doing even better.
Ive got to put up some bird houses. We are tree poor. And fly rich.
FungusProudKY31
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Rydero
Well-known member
There's definitely a lack of data. It takes time to study and adding all kinds of mixtures (cover crops, cattle grazing vs just cropping etc.) is probably making it harder to prove anything. Then of course there aren't a ton of parties who stand to make a fortune selling inputs to regenerative ag producers so who's going to fund the research? With some of the high seeding rates, niche species of crops etc you'd think the companies positioned to sell us seed would pitch in at some point.
I'm definitely moving towards regenerative practices but with some caution. Things that make sense to me like not removing nutrients, good grazing management, reducing tillage, reducing spray and inputs are probably here to stay. Jury is still out on some claims and practices - microorganisms manifesting all the nutrients the plants need with zero inputs, zero spray ever, seed bills that rival fertilizer bills, moving cattle every 20 mins is better (Savory's claims haven't been scientifically verified or satisfactorily reproduced) etc. I read this last weekend - https://www.producer.com/news/regenerative-ag-gets-closer-scrutiny/ I don't want to go the direction of low productivity - I've seen where it leads in this area. BSE did a great job highlighting what zero input farming looks like and it's not pretty - a downward spiral. I for one am cautiously optimistic but not ready to bet the farm just yet.
I'd love to buy dung beetles and see if I could establish them here. They provide a huge net benefit to the soil and regenerative practices. They existed here years ago but it didn't take long of ivermectin overuse to eradicate the population. Don't know anyone within 4 hours that has any. The NRCS office said they haven't been around for 50 years...then again the NRCS office told me managed grazing doesn't help much
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Cover crop seed company published some Australian (wheat) data this winter. Their claim is you can go cold turkey on P and K, and wean off N over 3 years time, if you add bio stimulates (seed treatment and foliar spray) and use cover crops. No cattle in that sturdy.
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Stocker Steve
Well-known member
ND fall calving hay consumption cost increase would be an additional $62/cow here.
I think a one and done with a later winter cow cull date would be interesting.
They say that about 80% of Phophorus gets tied up sometime after its applied to the soil...its there, just not available....at least thats what I've heard. Gabe Brown says that if you've applied P once in the last 20 years....you have enough for a long long time. We have to have plants that make it available like buckwheat which doesn't work too well in permanent pasture.....things like chicory are supposed to recycle P and to a lesser degree red clover.
Yes he is about 20 miles North of Challis, ID which is just under 4hrs from me. He has a good program, but he also has more rain fall on average than I do down here on the Southern Border. I have implemented some of his suggestions, but due to drought and access to water cows have to travel some. Kinda like Dave mentioned up in his part of the country.
Sorry, I replied to Dave instead of you, my apologies. Please see my reply to Dave.
FungusProudKY31
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On the birds to eat flies: how many boxes do you need to build and erect per how many acres? Purple Martins are the main swallow type around here - they leave in early July. That's not a big help in the worst of times. Poles and gourds or artificial gourds are not cheap, martin houses are an English Sparrow and Starling magnet. Barn swallows are around but do you need to build more barns to have more swallows?
Jafruech, where are you and what type of soil do you have? NCSU and others have info on dung beetles and some depends on soil type. There is a type in Louisiana that is not in SC. The LA ones are attracted to lights and when they die at the base of the lights by the sidewalk in fair numbers they smell too much like their diet! Phew-w-w-! I am sure there is some literature out there on how to have more or some.
Jafruech, where are you and what type of soil do you have? NCSU and others have info on dung beetles and some depends on soil type. There is a type in Louisiana that is not in SC. The LA ones are attracted to lights and when they die at the base of the lights by the sidewalk in fair numbers they smell too much like their diet! Phew-w-w-! I am sure there is some literature out there on how to have more or some.
