D.R. Cattle
Well-known member
Or am I interpreting the information wrong?
Genestar ramblings
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Ollie":1603zktv said:
anti-certain progress? no don't think so. the scenario you describe might be comparing apples to oranges. was he being bred to the same kind of cows you have? maybe it's the cows causing the low birthweight, not the bull.
i don't think anyone on here has said not to look at actual data and traits. once again, epd's are just a tool. you may have a heifer w/a birthweight epd of +3.0 (or 70 lbs if you want actual numbers). what happens when you breed her to a bull with a +2 birthweight (85 lb actual weight)?
Ollie":22vi2g05 said:
Ollie,
i have a little story for you (wanted to look up some of the details before writing it). i won't mention the breeders or the bull but folks familiar w/the polled hereford breed will probably know which bull i'm talking about. there is a bull in the polled hereford breed who was born w/an actual birthweight of 88 lbs. he later went on to win some major shows so lots of folks began to breed to him. many calves out of this bull and cows bred to this bull were lost due to high birthweights and calving difficulties. other breeders went ahead and used sons of his and also lost cows and calves.
this bull started out with an epd of +4.2 and his current birthweight epd is +13.9 his actual birthweight is still 88 lbs. if you went out to purchase a bull and saw his data, 88 lbs doesn't look so bad but you would probably be a little scared of a +13.9 epd.
A
Anonymous
Txag,
You just proved my point better than I could have. If I used the hereford bull you refer to expecting only +4 bw epd I would have been suprised.
D.R. Cattle
I don't think you'll here any breed associations putting weight values on any epd's because they can't. Along the same vane of thought what would a +.25 marbeling epd represent to you? I don't know either.
You guys do what you want . I'll use actual data to change my cattle especially in relation to carcas epd's and genestar
You just proved my point better than I could have. If I used the hereford bull you refer to expecting only +4 bw epd I would have been suprised.
D.R. Cattle
I don't think you'll here any breed associations putting weight values on any epd's because they can't. Along the same vane of thought what would a +.25 marbeling epd represent to you? I don't know either.
You guys do what you want . I'll use actual data to change my cattle especially in relation to carcas epd's and genestar
D.R. Cattle
Well-known member
I want to AI some cattle. Without EPD's how can any comparison be made?
A
Anonymous
The same way they did it before epd's , go look at them, and their genetic relatives
A
Anonymous
txag,
Any one could look at 12H or Driver or similiar bulls and see that they are hard calving but in the day people were willing to sacrafice that for growth. You don't need epd's for that.
Any one could look at 12H or Driver or similiar bulls and see that they are hard calving but in the day people were willing to sacrafice that for growth. You don't need epd's for that.
D.R. Cattle
Well-known member
I'm in Florida. I don't have to go way the hell over there, I can just look at the numbers, talk to the owners and have it shipped. I know it's not perfect, but like said many times, it's a good starting tool right?
Tod Dague
Well-known member
With using EPD's. If you are using a bull with a birth EPD of +3 and you want to decrease the birth wt some use a bull with a birth EPD of 0.
Tod
Tod
Ollie":1p1vqh2z said:
A
Anonymous
I was speaking where I wasn't invited. Ya'll can go back to your discussion
Tod Dague
Well-known member
So you are saying by looking at the bull, his realtives, and knowing that his birth wt was 88 Lbs you could have predicted that he would throw extreme BW and would be a cow killer better than EPDs? :?
Tod
Tod
Ollie":1o5nggt6 said:
D.R. Cattle
Well-known member
Ollie you are invited to any discussion. Even if someone is a true believer in EPD's, it doesn't mean they don't enjoy adversity.
A
Anonymous
Ollie":1fu2gaqi said:
didn't log in, but it's me, txag.
no. what i was saying is that the epd changed w/additional info. his actual bw never changed. yes, the first folks who used him either with the actual weight or the epd would both have been surprised, but as additional info came in & the epd went up, only those who ignored the epd & looked at his actual weight would have been surprised!!
Ollie":1viio1bc said:
I don't know that any breed association puts actual weights on EPDs. They shouldn't anyway. So why would you expect an actual marbling amount when you look at marbling EPDs? Bull #1 has a marbling EPD of .25 and bull #2 has a marbling EPD of .50. No one can tell you how their calves will marble because of management and the cow's influence. But we will EXPECT bull #2's calves to marble twice as much as bull A's calves. The .25 marbling you reference will only be useful if you're comparing another animal's marbling EPD. That's how EPDs work. As far as actual data is concerned, it is heavily influenced by management. Calves born in the spring are generally heavier than calves born in the fall. Creep fed calves with the same genetics will likely wean heavier than non-creep fed calves. Animals with the same genetics might wean heavier calves in areas of moderate tempertures than where it's excessively hot or cold. EPDs takes all that into consideration. You may not like them or use them and that's fine. But if you're expecting to sell breeding stock, you may find your customers are pretty well schooled in EPDs.
Ollie":4l6524dq said:
If the heifer doesn't have EPDs, until you breed this heifer and check the marbling on her calf, there is no answer to this question. Right now you know how she marbles. But EPDs use reported data, incorporate heritability and tell us how likely it is that this animal will pass her ability to marble on to her calf. Her own marbling has very little to do with her potential EPDs. It has to do with her sire & dam's EPDs. You should take time to learn about EPDs. They are really very useful.
Ollie":2w6tho6j said:
Of course you can. If your heifers have BW EPDs of 3 and you're breeding them to bulls with EPDs of 3 and getting 78# calves, then you use a bull with a lower BW EPD and you would EXPECT to get lighter calves. Very simple.
D.R. Cattle":1das3rke said:
The accuracy figure tells you how likely a particular animal's BW EPD is to change. By the time it gets to .99 accuracy, it's very solid. But it doesn't mean he will throw calves of any particular weight. A calf's BW is influenced by many things, the cow's genetics, management, time of year, as well as the bull. EPDs just tell us that if Bull #1 has a BW EPD of 5, you will expect the calves to weigh 5 more pounds at birth than if you bred the same cow, same management, to a bull with a BW EPD of 0. the 0 EPD is not breed average, at least in Angus. The American Angus Association took all the birth weights reported in 1976 or '77 (can't remember which, sorry), averaged them and set that as BW 0. They did the same with WW and YW. The average for EPDs changes every year, but 0 stayes as 0. Does that make sense to you?
D.R. Cattle
Well-known member
Makes perfect sense. I was interpreting the info correctly. Thanks for confirming.
