Genestar ramblings

[Frankie]

Frankie,
I dont' want to be rude Frankie, but are you serious? Do you think that the correlation between a perfect eating experience and high marbeling e.p.d.'s would be anything close to acceptable? Show me the study.

I think the "perfect eating experience" depends on the individual. But there are surveys that show consumers are more likely to be satisfied with a Choice steak than a Select steak. Below is a link to a study showing higher quality grade equals more tender steak. On page 1 this study claims the approximate odds of obtaining a tough strip loin steak at a retail supermarket are: Prime – 0; "Certified" grade – 1 in 10; Commodity Choice – 1 in 5; and Select 1 in 4. Higher quality grades have more marbling than lower grades. Look further on Page 6 and you'll find "Higher quality grades are associated with decreased mean shear force…" Shear force, of course, is a tenderness measurement. Higher shear force indicates tougher steak. Laura's Lean beef is built on Limousin genetics. They want lean beef, though they did lose their "Heart Healthy" designation from the American Heart Association because their beef had too much fat. What I like is not necessarily what you or Dun prefers to eat. But, overall, consumers prefer marbled beef. The simplest, quickest way to improve marbling in your herd is to use a bull with EPDs for high marbling. By all means, tell me what's hard about that?

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/7/1735.pdf

 

[Frankie]

Amazed said "With all due respect that's a comment especially common in Angus circles. The "more marbling/the better the beef" is too simplistic of an approach for an entire industry to take."

Check out the link I've provided to Ollie. Marbled beef is more likely to be tender. Consumers prefer marbled beef. Why is that so hard? Obviously, marbling is not everything, but a study in Hawaii showed high marbling cattle were no less fertile than their low marbling sisters. Marbling is important in my breeding program and my bulls gain very well on test, so it apparently doesn't hurt feed efficiency. Why would you not want to improve the marbling in your herd? I'm serious about that question.

 

[dun]

The point is that they're not going to test every carcass so it's still a crap shoot. I'll wager that someone could take a steer sired by a bull and out of a cow with both having double genestar marbling and tenderness, and they could still turn out crap. (Technical term for poor quality beef).
I'll wait a while before I start putting much credence on all of these wonderful new tests.
Of course I didn't think that PCs would catch on either, or cellphones for that matter.

dun

Because of a previous post on the subject I have been looking through the CRI/GENEX catalog and looking into the marbeling tenderness Genestar ratings. While there isn't anway to evaluate the tenderness gene, I noticed there isn't a real correlation between the marbeling EPDs and th genestar markers. Some have stars for marbeling and poor EPDs, others have no stars and high EPDs. If the correlation for tenderness relates as closely to the real world as the marbeling does, I wonder what value there is for the testing other then just one more gimmick. I certainly wouldn't base any selection criteria on them.

dun

Actually Dun there is a way to measure tenderness which I mentioned earlier as well. The Warner-Braschler Shear Force test has been done by a few organizations, American Simmental Assoc. being one.

The test involves cooking ten steaks to medium temperature and then shearing them one at a time with a guillotine type device with a gauge attached that measures the amount of force required to cut through. The high and low measurements are tossed out and then the remaining eight are used to record the average.

From what I have been told the Genestar tenderness results are more accurate when compared to physical data than the Genestar marbling indicators. Like I said earlier, toss in the Leptin DNA test as well and there is a whole lot of information to choose from. Which of those end up being snake oil and which will be useful will be interesting.

 

[amazed]

I agree marbling can be as much management related as it is genetic. They do go hand in hand.

The point is that they're not going to test every carcass so it's still a crap shoot. I'll wager that someone could take a steer sired by a bull and out of a cow with both having double genestar marbling and tenderness, and they could still turn out crap. (Technical term for poor quality beef).
I'll wait a while before I start putting much credence on all of these wonderful new tests.
Of course I didn't think that PCs would catch on either, or cellphones for that matter.

dun

Because of a previous post on the subject I have been looking through the CRI/GENEX catalog and looking into the marbeling tenderness Genestar ratings. While there isn't anway to evaluate the tenderness gene, I noticed there isn't a real correlation between the marbeling EPDs and th genestar markers. Some have stars for marbeling and poor EPDs, others have no stars and high EPDs. If the correlation for tenderness relates as closely to the real world as the marbeling does, I wonder what value there is for the testing other then just one more gimmick. I certainly wouldn't base any selection criteria on them.

dun

Actually Dun there is a way to measure tenderness which I mentioned earlier as well. The Warner-Braschler Shear Force test has been done by a few organizations, American Simmental Assoc. being one.

The test involves cooking ten steaks to medium temperature and then shearing them one at a time with a guillotine type device with a gauge attached that measures the amount of force required to cut through. The high and low measurements are tossed out and then the remaining eight are used to record the average.

From what I have been told the Genestar tenderness results are more accurate when compared to physical data than the Genestar marbling indicators. Like I said earlier, toss in the Leptin DNA test as well and there is a whole lot of information to choose from. Which of those end up being snake oil and which will be useful will be interesting.

 

[amazed]

Amazed said "With all due respect that's a comment especially common in Angus circles. The "more marbling/the better the beef" is too simplistic of an approach for an entire industry to take."

Check out the link I've provided to Ollie. Marbled beef is more likely to be tender. Consumers prefer marbled beef. Why is that so hard? Obviously, marbling is not everything, but a study in Hawaii showed high marbling cattle were no less fertile than their low marbling sisters. Marbling is important in my breeding program and my bulls gain very well on test, so it apparently doesn't hurt feed efficiency. Why would you not want to improve the marbling in your herd? I'm serious about that question.

I am an Angus breeder as well. I don't disagree that when eating out North Americans prefer a well marbled product. How many of those same consumers would buy the same piece of meat out of the supermarket display? We are all enjoying the success of the Atkins diet but what will the next trend be? It won't be back to the "shoe leather" steak days but will the ideal be?

What I have a problem with is believing one breed can do everything and that marbling should be the main focus. Angus is a terrific breed of cattle that does a lot of things very well but to use only Angus in a commercial herd is to deny the benefits of heterosis.

Frankie I am glad you wrote that marbling isn't everything as I agree. One Angus bull sale catalouge put it this way last year, "Carcass traits are important but don't ruin a cowherd chasing them".

 

[Frankie]

Amazed said "With all due respect that's a comment especially common in Angus circles. The "more marbling/the better the beef" is too simplistic of an approach for an entire industry to take."

Check out the link I've provided to Ollie. Marbled beef is more likely to be tender. Consumers prefer marbled beef. Why is that so hard? Obviously, marbling is not everything, but a study in Hawaii showed high marbling cattle were no less fertile than their low marbling sisters. Marbling is important in my breeding program and my bulls gain very well on test, so it apparently doesn't hurt feed efficiency. Why would you not want to improve the marbling in your herd? I'm serious about that question.

I am an Angus breeder as well. I don't disagree that when eating out North Americans prefer a well marbled product. How many of those same consumers would buy the same piece of meat out of the supermarket display? We are all enjoying the success of the Atkins diet but what will the next trend be? It won't be back to the "shoe leather" steak days but will the ideal be?

What I have a problem with is believing one breed can do everything and that marbling should be the main focus. Angus is a terrific breed of cattle that does a lot of things very well but to use only Angus in a commercial herd is to deny the benefits of heterosis.

Frankie I am glad you wrote that marbling isn't everything as I agree. One Angus bull sale catalouge put it this way last year, "Carcass traits are important but don't ruin a cowherd chasing them".

We all have opinions. I don't chase fads, but am not interested in a bull with less than breed average marbling EPDs. To me, it's just a given that Angus should marble. Marbled beef more profitable for the producer, the feeder, the packer and the retailer. The consumer has a better eating experience and is more likely to buy beef again. If I get four Select steaks at WalMart and invite the boss for dinner, chances are one of those steaks will be tough. What if the boss gets that one? Maybe next time I have an important dinner, I'll get chicken. It may not have much taste, but it's not going to be tough.

I do believe that straight bred Angus can do everything. We have a diverse gene pool here in the US. I'm not sure heterosis is as important in today's cattle business as it used to be. With crossbreeding comes diversity and if you sell on a grid, diversity is not necessarily a good thing. I know I'll get beat up for questioning heterosis, but that's ok; it won't be the first time.

 

[dun]

With the meat from Walmart I don;t know how you can average even 1 decent steak out of 4. Because they're the handiest store to us I used to pick up beef from them. Haven't bought beef from them in 2 years, other then roasts that I'm going to slice up for making jerky.
Heterosis in the individual calf is a 2 edged sword. The possibility for additional weaning and yealing weight is resent, but the cow herd has to have to milk to support it or you will get killed at sale time. Heterosis in the crossbred cow is another story, that's where it really shines.

dun

Amazed said "With all due respect that's a comment especially common in Angus circles. The "more marbling/the better the beef" is too simplistic of an approach for an entire industry to take."

Check out the link I've provided to Ollie. Marbled beef is more likely to be tender. Consumers prefer marbled beef. Why is that so hard? Obviously, marbling is not everything, but a study in Hawaii showed high marbling cattle were no less fertile than their low marbling sisters. Marbling is important in my breeding program and my bulls gain very well on test, so it apparently doesn't hurt feed efficiency. Why would you not want to improve the marbling in your herd? I'm serious about that question.

I am an Angus breeder as well. I don't disagree that when eating out North Americans prefer a well marbled product. How many of those same consumers would buy the same piece of meat out of the supermarket display? We are all enjoying the success of the Atkins diet but what will the next trend be? It won't be back to the "shoe leather" steak days but will the ideal be?

What I have a problem with is believing one breed can do everything and that marbling should be the main focus. Angus is a terrific breed of cattle that does a lot of things very well but to use only Angus in a commercial herd is to deny the benefits of heterosis.

Frankie I am glad you wrote that marbling isn't everything as I agree. One Angus bull sale catalouge put it this way last year, "Carcass traits are important but don't ruin a cowherd chasing them".

We all have opinions. I don't chase fads, but am not interested in a bull with less than breed average marbling EPDs. To me, it's just a given that Angus should marble. Marbled beef more profitable for the producer, the feeder, the packer and the retailer. The consumer has a better eating experience and is more likely to buy beef again. If I get four Select steaks at WalMart and invite the boss for dinner, chances are one of those steaks will be tough. What if the boss gets that one? Maybe next time I have an important dinner, I'll get chicken. It may not have much taste, but it's not going to be tough.

I do believe that straight bred Angus can do everything. We have a diverse gene pool here in the US. I'm not sure heterosis is as important in today's cattle business as it used to be. With crossbreeding comes diversity and if you sell on a grid, diversity is not necessarily a good thing. I know I'll get beat up for questioning heterosis, but that's ok; it won't be the first time.

 

[BLACKPOWER]

Why would you get killed at sale time? Maybe if you put to much continental in your crossbreeding. That's why I breed my angus cows Hereford, I still get heterosis but the calves come in an english package with a black hide. Plus when I sell the calves the buyers potentially have two of the biggest beef associations to market the calves through. Certified Hereford Beef and Certified Angus Beef. Angus cattle can do it all granted they are in the right environment, but if you want to increase fertility, foraging ability, and increase hybrid vigor cross breeding is a no brainer. The end product of crossbreeding does not lead to monster cows that have to milk like Holsteins to wean a bigger calf. That is where you are wrong.
About the only case where any producer should raise purebred cattle is if they are selling seedstock.

With the meat from Walmart I don;t know how you can average even 1 decent steak out of 4. Because they're the handiest store to us I used to pick up beef from them. Haven't bought beef from them in 2 years, other then roasts that I'm going to slice up for making jerky.
Heterosis in the individual calf is a 2 edged sword. The possibility for additional weaning and yealing weight is resent, but the cow herd has to have to milk to support it or you will get killed at sale time. Heterosis in the crossbred cow is another story, that's where it really shines.

dun

Amazed said "With all due respect that's a comment especially common in Angus circles. The "more marbling/the better the beef" is too simplistic of an approach for an entire industry to take."

Check out the link I've provided to Ollie. Marbled beef is more likely to be tender. Consumers prefer marbled beef. Why is that so hard? Obviously, marbling is not everything, but a study in Hawaii showed high marbling cattle were no less fertile than their low marbling sisters. Marbling is important in my breeding program and my bulls gain very well on test, so it apparently doesn't hurt feed efficiency. Why would you not want to improve the marbling in your herd? I'm serious about that question.

I am an Angus breeder as well. I don't disagree that when eating out North Americans prefer a well marbled product. How many of those same consumers would buy the same piece of meat out of the supermarket display? We are all enjoying the success of the Atkins diet but what will the next trend be? It won't be back to the "shoe leather" steak days but will the ideal be?

What I have a problem with is believing one breed can do everything and that marbling should be the main focus. Angus is a terrific breed of cattle that does a lot of things very well but to use only Angus in a commercial herd is to deny the benefits of heterosis.

Frankie I am glad you wrote that marbling isn't everything as I agree. One Angus bull sale catalouge put it this way last year, "Carcass traits are important but don't ruin a cowherd chasing them".

We all have opinions. I don't chase fads, but am not interested in a bull with less than breed average marbling EPDs. To me, it's just a given that Angus should marble. Marbled beef more profitable for the producer, the feeder, the packer and the retailer. The consumer has a better eating experience and is more likely to buy beef again. If I get four Select steaks at WalMart and invite the boss for dinner, chances are one of those steaks will be tough. What if the boss gets that one? Maybe next time I have an important dinner, I'll get chicken. It may not have much taste, but it's not going to be tough.

I do believe that straight bred Angus can do everything. We have a diverse gene pool here in the US. I'm not sure heterosis is as important in today's cattle business as it used to be. With crossbreeding comes diversity and if you sell on a grid, diversity is not necessarily a good thing. I know I'll get beat up for questioning heterosis, but that's ok; it won't be the first time.

 

[dun]

The reason you take a beating with overly growthy calves from cows that don;t have the milk to support them is that they appear rangier. Buyers really like those calves because they can buy them for less and get compensitory gains. A calf that looks like it's well fed and doesn;t have that rangy look to it will generally bring more.
As I said, our last F1 Balancer will soon be heading down the road, just too big although she weans 700+ calves. Our cows are, except that one, either straightbred angus, Red Angus or F1 Red Angus Polled Hereford. They milk enough on our fescue forage to wean a 550 to 650 lb calf and are all moderate framed. If a cow is being stressed with milk production you can run into reproduction problems. Our cows/heifers settle first service around 98% of the time. Anything that won;t settle with two services grows wheels. We don;t have that problem. The heifers are run right along with the cows and don;t get anything extra. When breeding season starts, actually the month before, we start bringin them up to the catch pen at least once a day and they get the same grain ration as the cows. About 1/2 to 1 lb per day. After they're bred they stay with the cows and are run just like all the other bred cows. The heifers mature around 950 - 1150 with that feeding regimen. We've only had one cow that didn't breed back as the three year old. She weaned 852 lbs worth of twins and turned into a lunatic. We bred her once, she cycled again and we turned her into burger.
I do believe that heterosis will contribute to a slightly larger framed animal then straighbreds given the same circumstances. That's the reason we use small bulls in our crossbreeding. 4.8 to 6 for crossbreeding, I prefer no more then 6 for the straighbreds also, but will fudge to 6.5 on really small cows if the milk is there.
That's our philosophy and it works for us. A different forage base, not using MIG, poorer quality forage and for that matter different cows, won't respond to our way of doing things. We've selected and bred for our managment methods and market.
It's kind of funny that lately the folks coming out buying hay have all commented on how good the girls look on just pasture. Hmmmmmm, maybe we're doing something right.

dun

Why would you get killed at sale time? Maybe if you put to much continental in your crossbreeding. That's why I breed my angus cows Hereford, I still get heterosis but the calves come in an english package with a black hide. Plus when I sell the calves the buyers potentially have two of the biggest beef associations to market the calves through. Certified Hereford Beef and Certified Angus Beef. Angus cattle can do it all granted they are in the right environment, but if you want to increase fertility, foraging ability, and increase hybrid vigor cross breeding is a no brainer. The end product of crossbreeding does not lead to monster cows that have to milk like Holsteins to wean a bigger calf. That is where you are wrong.
About the only case where any producer should raise purebred cattle is if they are selling seedstock.

With the meat from Walmart I don;t know how you can average even 1 decent steak out of 4. Because they're the handiest store to us I used to pick up beef from them. Haven't bought beef from them in 2 years, other then roasts that I'm going to slice up for making jerky.
Heterosis in the individual calf is a 2 edged sword. The possibility for additional weaning and yealing weight is resent, but the cow herd has to have to milk to support it or you will get killed at sale time. Heterosis in the crossbred cow is another story, that's where it really shines.

dun

Amazed said "With all due respect that's a comment especially common in Angus circles. The "more marbling/the better the beef" is too simplistic of an approach for an entire industry to take."

Check out the link I've provided to Ollie. Marbled beef is more likely to be tender. Consumers prefer marbled beef. Why is that so hard? Obviously, marbling is not everything, but a study in Hawaii showed high marbling cattle were no less fertile than their low marbling sisters. Marbling is important in my breeding program and my bulls gain very well on test, so it apparently doesn't hurt feed efficiency. Why would you not want to improve the marbling in your herd? I'm serious about that question.

I am an Angus breeder as well. I don't disagree that when eating out North Americans prefer a well marbled product. How many of those same consumers would buy the same piece of meat out of the supermarket display? We are all enjoying the success of the Atkins diet but what will the next trend be? It won't be back to the "shoe leather" steak days but will the ideal be?

What I have a problem with is believing one breed can do everything and that marbling should be the main focus. Angus is a terrific breed of cattle that does a lot of things very well but to use only Angus in a commercial herd is to deny the benefits of heterosis.

Frankie I am glad you wrote that marbling isn't everything as I agree. One Angus bull sale catalouge put it this way last year, "Carcass traits are important but don't ruin a cowherd chasing them".

We all have opinions. I don't chase fads, but am not interested in a bull with less than breed average marbling EPDs. To me, it's just a given that Angus should marble. Marbled beef more profitable for the producer, the feeder, the packer and the retailer. The consumer has a better eating experience and is more likely to buy beef again. If I get four Select steaks at WalMart and invite the boss for dinner, chances are one of those steaks will be tough. What if the boss gets that one? Maybe next time I have an important dinner, I'll get chicken. It may not have much taste, but it's not going to be tough.

I do believe that straight bred Angus can do everything. We have a diverse gene pool here in the US. I'm not sure heterosis is as important in today's cattle business as it used to be. With crossbreeding comes diversity and if you sell on a grid, diversity is not necessarily a good thing. I know I'll get beat up for questioning heterosis, but that's ok; it won't be the first time.

 

[Anonymous]

Frankie,
I happen to own this heifer.She is better than her contemporaries in almost every area. She is a purebred heifer. How can I improve her with epd's . If I can't , how can you use epd's as a breeding tool?

weight rea rea/cwt f.t. %imf
816 11.19 1.37 .16 4.88

 

[la4angus]

Frankie,
I happen to own this heifer.She is better than her contemporaries in almost every area. She is a purebred heifer. How can I improve her with epd's . If I can't , how can you use epd's as a breeding tool?

weight rea rea/cwt f.t. %imf
816 11.19 1.37 .16 4.88

What is this heifers EPD for Birth, Milk, Weaning if the 816 is yearling., Scrotal, %RP.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm satisfied with all aspects of this heifer. I'm sure that everything can be improved however in this case I'm trying to find a bull that will improve her carcass.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Ollie

The best way to improve carcass is to use a bull with above breed average EPD's for marbling (%imf) and ribeye with good growth and acceptable birth weight EPD's. I would recommend using a balance approach to EPD selection not single trait selection.

Pat Bates
Norwest Angus

 

[Anonymous]

This is a question I know the answer to but how large of a marbeling epd does it take to improve this heifer?

 

[D.R. Cattle]

I don't think I understand. If you know, why do you ask?

 

[Frankie]

Frankie,
I happen to own this heifer.She is better than her contemporaries in almost every area. She is a purebred heifer. How can I improve her with epd's . If I can't , how can you use epd's as a breeding tool?

weight rea rea/cwt f.t. %imf
816 11.19 1.37 .16 4.88

Well, first you can't improve this heifer. She is what she is. Did you bother to read the "Bull Buying Strategies..." I posted at the Angus site? It's a better explanation of using EPDs than I can ever give. Does this heifer have EPDs? EPDs are by far a better indicator of what sort of calves you can expect from a cow (or bull) than their own performance. What are you looking to improve? These aren't Angus stats, but it looks like she had adequate marbling, rea/cwt, and backfat. Ribeye is so-so and is that WW or YW? As for breeding her, is she tall, short, thick, thin? Do you want to retain heifers or sell everything? How much milk do you want? There's not enough info here for me to recommend any specific bull or EPDs.

 

[txag]

Frankie,
I happen to own this heifer.She is better than her contemporaries in almost every area. She is a purebred heifer. How can I improve her with epd's . If I can't , how can you use epd's as a breeding tool?

weight rea rea/cwt f.t. %imf
816 11.19 1.37 .16 4.88

Ollie is anti-epd. he's just trying to start a fight about them. no one's going to change his mind & he's not going to change anyone else's.

 

[Anonymous]

I ask that to prove that you can't make breeding decisions using epd's when your trying to improve the actual. An another example would be if my heifers were having 78# calves and I wanted to decrease that a few pounds there is no information in an epd to help me make that decision. You guys will be the first to admit that they are a comparison of differences, not a number that can be used if I know the number that I'm breeding for. Having said that If you know what you want as an actual outcome you could be making a mistake using epd's

 

[Anonymous]

Txag,
Your right , i'm anti epd and your pro epd or to say it another way I'm pro certain progress and your anti certain progress. If my heifers are having 78# calves and a certain bull has calves weighing 65# after 100 calves I would feel confident he could lower my birthweights.

 

[D.R. Cattle]

Wouldn't a breeds EPD for birthweight be doing the same thing? Provided the accuracy factor was high? If the bull's accuracy level was .99 and his EPD for BW is-1.0, doesn't it mean he is proven by 99 out of 100 to throw calves 1 lb less than the breed average?