Genestar ramblings

[la4angus]

I agree that there are many outside variables that affect beef quality, feeding, handling, slaughter, hanging butchering, cooking, etc but it has been proven over and over that there is a difference in breeds regarding tenderness (and I and many other breeders think that quality is just as important as quanity) certain breeds are tougher than others. There are differences with in a breed.What DNA testing does is let you start right with a tender calf, the other factors still remain but you cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear.

That is what I have been trying to say! "Marbling is Quality."!!

Thank You

 

[BLACKPOWER]

I agree that there are many outside variables that affect beef quality, feeding, handling, slaughter, hanging butchering, cooking, etc but it has been proven over and over that there is a difference in breeds regarding tenderness (and I and many other breeders think that quality is just as important as quanity) certain breeds are tougher than others. There are differences with in a breed.What DNA testing does is let you start right with a tender calf, the other factors still remain but you cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear.

That is what I have been trying to say! "Marbling is Quality."!!

Thank You

People who only look at REA and lean muscle mass and take no considerations into marbling better not ever retain ownership on a group of cattle. They also better not count on that buyer ever buying their cattle again. Angus cattle are not a fad, they are popular, not because they are black but because they grade well, they are abundant and due to their large numbers their genetic progress through breeding and generations is far far ahead of all the other breeds. You people that try to put longhorn, holstein, chi, murray greys, and all these other breeds into your cattle are merely trying to reinvent the wheel. I put more merit in carcass than I do with almost all other traits because that is what I am selling. I don't retain ownership on my cattle right now but when I do I know that I will be able to take advantage of the premiums on the grid. You continental breeders can't say the same thing. And your only argument is ANGUS IS BAD, BAD BAD NAUGHTY ANGUS, DARN THAT ANGUS FOR HAVING SUPERIOR CARCASS QUALITY TO MY HERFSTEINS! GIVE ME A BREAK.

 

[Anonymous]

I Have headed the American Pinzgauer Tenderness Testing program. We got involved primarily to document what we knew that our Beef was equal to or better than others. 87% of Pinzgauers tested were GeneSTAR 2 Star. This compares with a MARC research study reported in the Journal of Animal Science 1994. The MARC study was based on Mean shear force comparsion to other breeds this shows that DNA testing is valid in forcasting tenderness. We did no marbling testing because marbling has less than 10% effect on tenderness. I know of one major Branded Beef company that selects only tender DNA Tested bulls. A newly developed test from MARC test for Calpain vice Calpastatin and also shows much value. I know you cannot have single trait bulls but when you have a quality bull and Tenderness it seems you are dumb not to use him instead of some unknown.
P.S. Angus test 76% 2 Star 23% 1 Star

Sure Pinzgauer beef carries the tenderness gene. ANGUS also carries the tenderness gene. ANGUS also carries the Marbling Gene. Marbling is where you get Flavor. If all you want is tender eat a hot dog, it is tender.
Hamburgers are also tender. Vienna sausages are tender, bologna is tender. They also have flavor. Flavor comes from the fat in mixed in the meat. Veal is tender. Not very flavorful; but tender. Ice cream is made with cream. The cream has fat in it. That is where the flavor comes from.
How often do you hear people ask for a dish of Ice M.ilk. Not often, I would think. Have you ever drank a beer or Coca Cola made with just water. Not very flavorful. If you guys would just admit that you can not beat the ANGUS and accept what you have for what it is, instead of trying to knock a better product this would be a much more peaceful world.
People do not demand Certified Angus Beef just for the name. They demand Certified ANGUS Beef because it is the best and they want the best. How many markets are demanding certified pinzgauer beef, or certified longhorn beef or certified charolais beef. If their customers were asking for it they would demand it from the packers.

la4angus,
If the supermarket switched the sign from CAB to lets say Certified Charolais beef, people would buy it.... Or it was switched from CAB to Certified Longhorn Beef people would buy it ( and realized that they are getting healthier). People are dumb. They don't know the difference between Angus beef to Charolais beef nor can they identify them alive! (what are those black cows? white ones? Angus? oh the white ones are Angus? ohhh the black ones!) get it?

 

[D.R. Cattle]

Wrong again you ignorant pup. People may not know what an angus is, but they associate "Angus beef" with quality. This is because Angus organizations have done their homework with marketing, and angus beef usually maintains its quality reputation. Doesn't mean other beef is not good.

 

[txag]

If the supermarket switched the sign from CAB to lets say Certified Charolais beef, people would buy it.... Or it was switched from CAB to Certified Longhorn Beef people would buy it ( and realized that they are getting healthier).

you're right. they might buy it........ONCE but chances are they may not come back for more.

fyi: there is a branded beef program for lean meat: laura's lean. people wanting lean, non-marbled beef can buy this

 

[Anonymous]

I agree that there are many outside variables that affect beef quality, feeding, handling, slaughter, hanging butchering, cooking, etc but it has been proven over and over that there is a difference in breeds regarding tenderness (and I and many other breeders think that quality is just as important as quanity) certain breeds are tougher than others. There are differences with in a breed.What DNA testing does is let you start right with a tender calf, the other factors still remain but you cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear.

That is what I have been trying to say! "Marbling is Quality."!!

Thank You

People who only look at REA and lean muscle mass and take no considerations into marbling better not ever retain ownership on a group of cattle. They also better not count on that buyer ever buying their cattle again. Angus cattle are not a fad, they are popular, not because they are black but because they grade well, they are abundant and due to their large numbers their genetic progress through breeding and generations is far far ahead of all the other breeds. You people that try to put longhorn, holstein, chi, murray greys, and all these other breeds into your cattle are merely trying to reinvent the wheel. I put more merit in carcass than I do with almost all other traits because that is what I am selling. I don't retain ownership on my cattle right now but when I do I know that I will be able to take advantage of the premiums on the grid. You continental breeders can't say the same thing. And your only argument is ANGUS IS BAD, BAD BAD NAUGHTY ANGUS, DARN THAT ANGUS FOR HAVING SUPERIOR CARCASS QUALITY TO MY HERFSTEINS! GIVE ME A BREAK.

Blackpower

Well said.

 

[dun]

Or they could buy jerky and soak it in water

dun

fyi: there is a branded beef program for lean meat: laura's lean. people wanting lean, non-marbled beef can buy this

 

[la4angus]

I Have headed the American Pinzgauer Tenderness Testing program. We got involved primarily to document what we knew that our Beef was equal to or better than others. 87% of Pinzgauers tested were GeneSTAR 2 Star. This compares with a MARC research study reported in the Journal of Animal Science 1994. The MARC study was based on Mean shear force comparsion to other breeds this shows that DNA testing is valid in forcasting tenderness. We did no marbling testing because marbling has less than 10% effect on tenderness. I know of one major Branded Beef company that selects only tender DNA Tested bulls. A newly developed test from MARC test for Calpain vice Calpastatin and also shows much value. I know you cannot have single trait bulls but when you have a quality bull and Tenderness it seems you are dumb not to use him instead of some unknown.
P.S. Angus test 76% 2 Star 23% 1 Star

Sure Pinzgauer beef carries the tenderness gene. ANGUS also carries the tenderness gene. ANGUS also carries the Marbling Gene. Marbling is where you get Flavor. If all you want is tender eat a hot dog, it is tender.
Hamburgers are also tender. Vienna sausages are tender, bologna is tender. They also have flavor. Flavor comes from the fat in mixed in the meat. Veal is tender. Not very flavorful; but tender. Ice cream is made with cream. The cream has fat in it. That is where the flavor comes from.
How often do you hear people ask for a dish of Ice M.ilk. Not often, I would think. Have you ever drank a beer or Coca Cola made with just water. Not very flavorful. If you guys would just admit that you can not beat the ANGUS and accept what you have for what it is, instead of trying to knock a better product this would be a much more peaceful world.
People do not demand Certified Angus Beef just for the name. They demand Certified ANGUS Beef because it is the best and they want the best. How many markets are demanding certified pinzgauer beef, or certified longhorn beef or certified charolais beef. If their customers were asking for it they would demand it from the packers.

la4angus,
If the supermarket switched the sign from CAB to lets say Certified Charolais beef, people would buy it.... Or it was switched from CAB to Certified Longhorn Beef people would buy it ( and realized that they are getting healthier). People are dumb. They don't know the difference between Angus beef to Charolais beef nor can they identify them alive! (what are those black cows? white ones? Angus? oh the white ones are Angus? ohhh the black ones!) get it?

This sounds like your thought process. Or do you think before you type.

 

[dun]

I persoanlly like Pinzgaur, but the shallowness of the proven gene pool just puts them out of the running. I would hope that the calving difficulties that they had years ago have been overcome. The stripe doesn't bother me in our marketing plan. It all boils down to the lack of highly proven sires.

dun

I Have headed the American Pinzgauer Tenderness Testing program. We got involved primarily to document what we knew that our Beef was equal to or better than others. 87% of Pinzgauers tested were GeneSTAR 2 Star. This compares with a MARC research study reported in the Journal of Animal Science 1994. The MARC study was based on Mean shear force comparsion to other breeds this shows that DNA testing is valid in forcasting tenderness. We did no marbling testing because marbling has less than 10% effect on tenderness. I know of one major Branded Beef company that selects only tender DNA Tested bulls. A newly developed test from MARC test for Calpain vice Calpastatin and also shows much value. I know you cannot have single trait bulls but when you have a quality bull and Tenderness it seems you are dumb not to use him instead of some unknown.
P.S. Angus test 76% 2 Star 23% 1 Star

 

[Ann Bledsoe]

People who only look at REA and lean muscle mass and take no considerations into marbling better not ever retain ownership on a group of cattle. They also better not count on that buyer ever buying their cattle again. Angus cattle are not a fad, they are popular, not because they are black but because they grade well, they are abundant and due to their large numbers their genetic progress through breeding and generations is far far ahead of all the other breeds. You people that try to put longhorn, holstein, chi, murray greys, and all these other breeds into your cattle are merely trying to reinvent the wheel. I put more merit in carcass than I do with almost all other traits because that is what I am selling. I don't retain ownership on my cattle right now but when I do I know that I will be able to take advantage of the premiums on the grid. You continental breeders can't say the same thing. And your only argument is ANGUS IS BAD, BAD BAD NAUGHTY ANGUS, DARN THAT ANGUS FOR HAVING SUPERIOR CARCASS QUALITY TO MY HERFSTEINS! GIVE ME A BREAK.

Gotta agree with you there, BP.
I've raised & butchered several different breeds and crosses as well as Angus crosses and pure Red and Black Angus. Give me an Angus or Angus cross any day of the week.
I got real tired of trying to pick out good meat at the grocery store -- well marbled meat that looks good can still be tough, and most of it isn't aged nearly long enough either.
I've found it much easier to raise and process my own and know each and every time that a cut of meat is taken from the freezer that it's going to be top quality.

Ann B

 

[Anonymous]

I'm interested in hearing the explaination as well. Just because e.p.d.s. don't correlate I wouldn't refute the results just yet it could be that actual data is more accutate than expected!
On the same subject I have heard that only 17% of angus cattle reach c.a.b. What is the percent imf that is the threshold for cab?

 

[Frankie]

I'm interested in hearing the explaination as well. Just because e.p.d.s. don't correlate I wouldn't refute the results just yet it could be that actual data is more accutate than expected!
On the same subject I have heard that only 17% of angus cattle reach c.a.b. What is the percent imf that is the threshold for cab?

Only about 17-20% of generic black cattle qualify as CAB. There have been some lots of cattle sired by known Angus bulls qualify at 80%. Angus sire groups fed in licensed CAB feedlots often qualify at 35-50%. I'm actually surprised that 17% of the black, generic cattle can qualify, considering that every breed has black cattle these days. EDS will never tell you how much a calf will marble any more than they will tell you what a calf will weigh. They just tell you that if Bull A has a higher IMF EPD than Bull B then we would EXPECT that Bull A's calves would have a higher marbling score. No EPD can take the genetics of the cow and management into consideration. Here's the USDA site for CAB; it tells you the USDA requirements for CAB:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/beef/cab.htm

 

[sillco]

amazed: EPD's are whole breed compairsons, not comtempary group compairsons. As such I would think they would take in all considerations of the veriables since any breed could be everywhere.

 

[la4angus]

Because of a previous post on the subject I have been looking through the CRI/GENEX catalog and looking into the marbeling tenderness Genestar ratings. While there isn't anway to evaluate the tenderness gene, I noticed there isn't a real correlation between the marbeling EPDs and th genestar markers. Some have stars for marbeling and poor EPDs, others have no stars and high EPDs. If the correlation for tenderness relates as closely to the real world as the marbeling does, I wonder what value there is for the testing other then just one more gimmick. I certainly wouldn't base any selection criteria on them.

dun

Hey Dun
I will get into this later, but the EPD's have a lot to be desired. I know that it will be taken wrong by many on this board, but I will try to get into it later when it is not so late. I am hoping that the GeneStar test will be more reliable for the breeding crop's calves.
One thing is that not all all of the Bulls have the GeneStar test but they all have the EPD figures run on them, which relates to all of the ancestors in their back ground that the different Assn.'s have records on.
Good topic. We will get into it later. I 'm tired.
Lloyd

 

[amazed]

amazed: EPD's are whole breed compairsons, not comtempary group compairsons. As such I would think they would take in all considerations of the veriables since any breed could be everywhere.

I may have not made myself clear. Yes EPD's are comparisons within a breed (there are also now formulas that compare between breeds).

My point is that EPD's are generated by using information which is submitted from animals within the same contemporary group within a herd.
That is what eliminates the variables.

 

[amazed]

Because of a previous post on the subject I have been looking through the CRI/GENEX catalog and looking into the marbeling tenderness Genestar ratings. While there isn't anway to evaluate the tenderness gene, I noticed there isn't a real correlation between the marbeling EPDs and th genestar markers. Some have stars for marbeling and poor EPDs, others have no stars and high EPDs. If the correlation for tenderness relates as closely to the real world as the marbeling does, I wonder what value there is for the testing other then just one more gimmick. I certainly wouldn't base any selection criteria on them.

dun

Actually Dun there is a way to measure tenderness which I mentioned earlier as well. The Warner-Braschler Shear Force test has been done by a few organizations, American Simmental Assoc. being one.

The test involves cooking ten steaks to medium temperature and then shearing them one at a time with a guillotine type device with a gauge attached that measures the amount of force required to cut through. The high and low measurements are tossed out and then the remaining eight are used to record the average.

From what I have been told the Genestar tenderness results are more accurate when compared to physical data than the Genestar marbling indicators. Like I said earlier, toss in the Leptin DNA test as well and there is a whole lot of information to choose from. Which of those end up being snake oil and which will be useful will be interesting.

 

[Frankie]

Because of a previous post on the subject I have been looking through the CRI/GENEX catalog and looking into the marbeling tenderness Genestar ratings. While there isn't anway to evaluate the tenderness gene, I noticed there isn't a real correlation between the marbeling EPDs and th genestar markers. Some have stars for marbeling and poor EPDs, others have no stars and high EPDs. If the correlation for tenderness relates as closely to the real world as the marbeling does, I wonder what value there is for the testing other then just one more gimmick. I certainly wouldn't base any selection criteria on them.

dun

Actually Dun there is a way to measure tenderness which I mentioned earlier as well. The Warner-Braschler Shear Force test has been done by a few organizations, American Simmental Assoc. being one.

The test involves cooking ten steaks to medium temperature and then shearing them one at a time with a guillotine type device with a gauge attached that measures the amount of force required to cut through. The high and low measurements are tossed out and then the remaining eight are used to record the average.

From what I have been told the Genestar tenderness results are more accurate when compared to physical data than the Genestar marbling indicators. Like I said earlier, toss in the Leptin DNA test as well and there is a whole lot of information to choose from. Which of those end up being snake oil and which will be useful will be interesting.

While these tests are well and good and hopefully will help in the future, today we know that consumers consistently prefer high quality beef. We know that the higher the quality grade, the more likely beef will be tender. There's no big secret to raising higher quality beef, use a bull that has EPDs for superior marbling.

 

[Anonymous]

Frankie,
I dont' want to be rude Frankie, but are you serious? Do you think that the correlation between a perfect eating experience and high marbeling e.p.d.'s would be anything close to acceptable? Show me the study.

 

[amazed]

Because of a previous post on the subject I have been looking through the CRI/GENEX catalog and looking into the marbeling tenderness Genestar ratings. While there isn't anway to evaluate the tenderness gene, I noticed there isn't a real correlation between the marbeling EPDs and th genestar markers. Some have stars for marbeling and poor EPDs, others have no stars and high EPDs. If the correlation for tenderness relates as closely to the real world as the marbeling does, I wonder what value there is for the testing other then just one more gimmick. I certainly wouldn't base any selection criteria on them.

dun

Actually Dun there is a way to measure tenderness which I mentioned earlier as well. The Warner-Braschler Shear Force test has been done by a few organizations, American Simmental Assoc. being one.

The test involves cooking ten steaks to medium temperature and then shearing them one at a time with a guillotine type device with a gauge attached that measures the amount of force required to cut through. The high and low measurements are tossed out and then the remaining eight are used to record the average.

From what I have been told the Genestar tenderness results are more accurate when compared to physical data than the Genestar marbling indicators. Like I said earlier, toss in the Leptin DNA test as well and there is a whole lot of information to choose from. Which of those end up being snake oil and which will be useful will be interesting.

While these tests are well and good and hopefully will help in the future, today we know that consumers consistently prefer high quality beef. We know that the higher the quality grade, the more likely beef will be tender. There's no big secret to raising higher quality beef, use a bull that has EPDs for superior marbling.

With all due respect that's a comment especially common in Angus circles. The "more marbling/the better the beef" is too simplistic of an approach for an entire industry to take.

 

[Anonymous]

While it may be common , not all angus breeders think that way. Some if not all of the larger breeders participating in the sire alliance test ,sort several hundred head of cattle to come up with a pen. They dont use epd's or genestar they use ultrasound.