Frame Size

[dun]

I have a real simple standard for mature cow size. If she can walk under my out stretched arm without me having to raise it above horizontal, then they're in the size range I want.

Frame size does not mean how long there legs are. It is the distance from the ground to the top of its hip. Therefor a deep bodied animal with shorter legs may be taller than a one gutted greyhound with shorter legs. Depth of side and body condition determins the dualability to ones enviroment. Them one gutted ones will not survive on a harsh inviroment. They don't have enough capasity to survive along time. So like i said if you have more grass than they can eat you can stand larger framed cattle. if you no grass then you would want smaller. It all amounts to the type of range you have.

No matter how big and deep bodied they are I personally still don;t like cattle that won;t pass the armpit test.

 

[cfpinz]

No matter how big and deep bodied they are I personally still don;t like cattle that won;t pass the armpit test.

That's all fine and dandy but my wife would have FS 2 cows and Ralph Sampson would have FS 9's!

Most of our cows are low 5's. Pound for pound I think the small 5 cows make the most money for me. The few 6 frame cows that I have wean some nice calves but I wonder exactly how much more intake the cows have. As with anything else, whatever floats your boat.

cfpinz

 

[dun]

No matter how big and deep bodied they are I personally still don;t like cattle that won;t pass the armpit test.

That's all fine and dandy but my wife would have FS 2 cows and Ralph Sampson would have FS 9's!

Most of our cows are low 5's. Pound for pound I think the small 5 cows make the most money for me. The few 6 frame cows that I have wean some nice calves but I wonder exactly how much more intake the cows have. As with anything else, whatever floats your boat.

cfpinz

She isn;t that short that I recall. Now if it was my wife anything bigger then a good sized dog would be too big with the AP test

 

[cfpinz]

She isn;t that short that I recall.

She isn't that tall either! And I doubt any of my cows would get close to her pits, when she forgets to shave it looks like she's got Don King in a headlock!

 

[novatech]

I have a real simple standard for mature cow size. If she can walk under my out stretched arm without me having to raise it above horizontal, then they're in the size range I want.

Frame size does not mean how long there legs are. It is the distance from the ground to the top of its hip. Therefor a deep bodied animal with shorter legs may be taller than a one gutted greyhound with shorter legs. Depth of side and body condition determins the dualability to ones enviroment. Them one gutted ones will not survive on a harsh inviroment. They don't have enough capasity to survive along time. So like i said if you have more grass than they can eat you can stand larger framed cattle. if you no grass then you would want smaller. It all amounts to the type of range you have.

Please show me on any frame score chart where depth of body is included. With out knowing the weight how can you determine an assumed size?
What I see is low frame scores and larger than average weights being the trend. This makes for large cattle that do not fit frame scores that people claim. They are just makeing bigger cows the other direction. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Oldtimer]

I have a real simple standard for mature cow size. If she can walk under my out stretched arm without me having to raise it above horizontal, then they're in the size range I want.

Frame size does not mean how long there legs are. It is the distance from the ground to the top of its hip. Therefor a deep bodied animal with shorter legs may be taller than a one gutted greyhound with shorter legs. Depth of side and body condition determins the dualability to ones enviroment. Them one gutted ones will not survive on a harsh inviroment. They don't have enough capasity to survive along time. So like i said if you have more grass than they can eat you can stand larger framed cattle. if you no grass then you would want smaller. It all amounts to the type of range you have.

Please show me on any frame score chart where depth of body is included. With out knowing the weight how can you determine an assumed size?
What I see is low frame scores and larger than average weights being the trend. This makes for large cattle that do not fit frame scores that people claim. They are just makeing bigger cows the other direction. I hope this makes sense.

I think I agree with what your saying... The genetics I have been trying to use are building longer deeper bodied cattle- that can weigh much more and still be only 5 framed....I sold a cow this summer- that was under 6 frame that had lost a calf to coyotes in June- I didn't get her gathered in to sell until Aug- she was rolling grass fat and almost floored me when she went across the scales and weighed 1650 lbs.....Heaviest cow to ever come off the place- but she was no taller than the average of the herd....

What I like is these same cattle are now still grazing on winter grass with no supplements- and are still in great condition....

 

[KNERSIE]

I have a real simple standard for mature cow size. If she can walk under my out stretched arm without me having to raise it above horizontal, then they're in the size range I want.

Frame size does not mean how long there legs are. It is the distance from the ground to the top of its hip. Therefor a deep bodied animal with shorter legs may be taller than a one gutted greyhound with shorter legs. Depth of side and body condition determins the dualability to ones enviroment. Them one gutted ones will not survive on a harsh inviroment. They don't have enough capasity to survive along time. So like i said if you have more grass than they can eat you can stand larger framed cattle. if you no grass then you would want smaller. It all amounts to the type of range you have.

Please show me on any frame score chart where depth of body is included. With out knowing the weight how can you determine an assumed size?
What I see is low frame scores and larger than average weights being the trend. This makes for large cattle that do not fit frame scores that people claim. They are just makeing bigger cows the other direction. I hope this makes sense.

I think I agree with what your saying... The genetics I have been trying to use are building longer deeper bodied cattle- that can weigh much more and still be only 5 framed....I sold a cow this summer- that was under 6 frame that had lost a calf to coyotes in June- I didn't get her gathered in to sell until Aug- she was rolling grass fat and almost floored me when she went across the scales and weighed 1650 lbs.....Heaviest cow to ever come off the place- but she was no taller than the average of the herd....

What I like is these same cattle are now still grazing on winter grass with no supplements- and are still in great condition....[/quote]

That's good to hear, that is the same reason many of us are going (back) that route.

 

[rocket2222]

I have a real simple standard for mature cow size. If she can walk under my out stretched arm without me having to raise it above horizontal, then they're in the size range I want.

Frame size does not mean how long there legs are. It is the distance from the ground to the top of its hip. Therefor a deep bodied animal with shorter legs may be taller than a one gutted greyhound with shorter legs. Depth of side and body condition determins the dualability to ones enviroment. Them one gutted ones will not survive on a harsh inviroment. They don't have enough capasity to survive along time. So like i said if you have more grass than they can eat you can stand larger framed cattle. if you no grass then you would want smaller. It all amounts to the type of range you have.

Please show me on any frame score chart where depth of body is included. With out knowing the weight how can you determine an assumed size?
What I see is low frame scores and larger than average weights being the trend. This makes for large cattle that do not fit frame scores that people claim. They are just makeing bigger cows the other direction. I hope this makes sense.

I think I agree with what your saying... The genetics I have been trying to use are building longer deeper bodied cattle- that can weigh much more and still be only 5 framed....I sold a cow this summer- that was under 6 frame that had lost a calf to coyotes in June- I didn't get her gathered in to sell until Aug- she was rolling grass fat and almost floored me when she went across the scales and weighed 1650 lbs.....Heaviest cow to ever come off the place- but she was no taller than the average of the herd....

What I like is these same cattle are now still grazing on winter grass with no supplements- and are still in great condition....[/quote:1d2vetgj]

That's good to hear, that is the same reason many of us are going (back) that route.

[/quote]

So you breed them so their 5 frames and 6/8 inches wider and a foot longer so they end up weighing what a normal 6 frame weighs. Then because they are 4/6 inches shorter they are more efficient. I guess beings they don't have bend their necks as far down to eat, they use less energy, theres got to be a big savings there :roll: They say the reason a 5 frame is more efficient than a 6 frame is because it weighs less, not the same. The next thing they will say is these 1500/1600 5 frames don't eat any less than are old 6 frames, maybe we need to drop them down another frame score to keep the weight down, [and make them more efficient] and pretty soon ya'll be back down to the dinks of the past which diidn't work any better than the 8/9 frames in the eighties. Just my 2 cents worth.

I needed to correct part of my earlier post. I wrote "The reason a 5 frame is more efficient than a 6 frame is because it weighs less, not the same." What it sould have read is, "THEY SAY the reason a 5 frame is more efficient than a 6 frame is because it weighs less, not the same." I way I wrote it, made it sound like, I thought, that smaller ment more efficient, when I don't think that at all.

 

[KNERSIE]

I have a real simple standard for mature cow size. If she can walk under my out stretched arm without me having to raise it above horizontal, then they're in the size range I want.

Frame size does not mean how long there legs are. It is the distance from the ground to the top of its hip. Therefor a deep bodied animal with shorter legs may be taller than a one gutted greyhound with shorter legs. Depth of side and body condition determins the dualability to ones enviroment. Them one gutted ones will not survive on a harsh inviroment. They don't have enough capasity to survive along time. So like i said if you have more grass than they can eat you can stand larger framed cattle. if you no grass then you would want smaller. It all amounts to the type of range you have.

Please show me on any frame score chart where depth of body is included. With out knowing the weight how can you determine an assumed size?
What I see is low frame scores and larger than average weights being the trend. This makes for large cattle that do not fit frame scores that people claim. They are just makeing bigger cows the other direction. I hope this makes sense.

I think I agree with what your saying... The genetics I have been trying to use are building longer deeper bodied cattle- that can weigh much more and still be only 5 framed....I sold a cow this summer- that was under 6 frame that had lost a calf to coyotes in June- I didn't get her gathered in to sell until Aug- she was rolling grass fat and almost floored me when she went across the scales and weighed 1650 lbs.....Heaviest cow to ever come off the place- but she was no taller than the average of the herd....

What I like is these same cattle are now still grazing on winter grass with no supplements- and are still in great condition....[/quote:358mbp95]

That's good to hear, that is the same reason many of us are going (back) that route.

So you breed them so their 5 frames and 6/8 inches wider and a foot longer so they end up weighing what a normal 6 frame weighs. Then because they are 4/6 inches shorter they are more efficient. I guess beings they don't have bend their necks as far down to eat, they use less energy, theres got to be a big savings there :roll: The reason a 5 frame is more efficient than a 6 frame is because it weighs less, not the same. The next thing they will say is these 1500/1600 5 frames don't eat any less than are old 6 frames, maybe we need to drop them down another frame score to keep the weight down, [and make them more efficient] and pretty soon ya'll be back down to the dinks of the past which diidn't work any better than the 8/9 frames in the eighties. Just my 2 cents worth.

[/quote]

Now you are taking my comments out of context, I select for high capacity well muscled frame 5 cattle, the intention isn't to breed a frame 7 animal with ridiculously short legs.

Just more capacity and stronger bone with more muscle mass than the typical run of the mill frame 5 animal. I personally don't chase extreme body length as it bring its own set of problems, I want a balanced animal from back to front and from side to side. I am sure you have seen photos of my cattle in the past?

FWIW the bulk of my herd is between a frame 4.5 and 5.5 and the average weight is between 1200 - 1400 lbs, that is hardly extreme in any direction.

I am just not interested in breeding frame 6 cattle that weighs 1200lbs.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Wouldn't a frame 6 1400lb cow wean more meat then the frame 5 1400lb cow, and they should in reality eat about the same amount.

 

[novatech]

Wouldn't a frame 6 1400lb cow wean more meat then the frame 5 1400lb cow, and they should in reality eat about the same amount.

How would a frame 6 yield more meat? Seems like the 6 would have more bone.

 

[KNERSIE]

Wouldn't a frame 6 1400lb cow wean more meat then the frame 5 1400lb cow, and they should in reality eat about the same amount.

Not neccesarily, when the quality of the forage go down to below levels acceptable for production you'll be better off having a smaller higher capacity cow than having a taller lower capacity cow.

A gutty small cow can consume more low quality food relative to her size than a frame 8 cow of the same weight can do. In the real world where conditions are seldom ideal it equates to the smaller higher capacity cow being able to hold her condition better in adverse times.

Not everything can be measured in WW, and efficiency ratios, although a good tool is also only a half truth

 

[MikeC]

I've seen very small frames that couldn't convert diddly. Those are a waste of my time and money.

If a small frame calf takes 12-15 lbs. of feed to make one pound of gain, when I can regularly get a conversion ratio of 5:1. I'll take the larger calf every day.

If anyone thinks it takes a small frame cow to be efficient, they are fooling themselves.

Feed Efficiency is a biological process that doesn't know what a Frame Score is.

In a commercial pasture of mine there are Herfs, Brangus, and Char crosses. They range from Frame 4's to Frame 7's.

The small frames aren't necessarily the easier keepers.

 

[BRG]

I think that a 6 frame is where we need to be. We do not pamper our cattle and niether do most of our customers. They convert great and yet wean off a calf that the buyers and feeders are wanting. None of the feeders that we work with want a small (5.4 or less frame). They get to fat to quick and do not get the meat on they need. This is ussually where the high yield grades come from. Most of us only have one customer when we sell our calves, and that is the feeder. I think we should deliver what they want, otherwise they will go somewhere else and get it.

 

[dun]

The problem with breeding small framed cows to large framed bulls is that you don;t alwasy get the average of the 2. You may get some in the middle but there will still be those that tend towards the bulls size and those that tend towards the cow size.
If I had a steady market for smaller framed steers, like customers to buy them direct for slaughter, the small framed cows would be dandy. Around here every one and his cat has a calf or 2 or has a friend/relative that does. We only get a request occasioanlly for a side of beef or a slaughter steer. Those calls I route to folks that have them.
As I said before and BRG reiterated my customers are the feeders. The ones that buy our calves are looking for small 1s to large 2s.
If I could raise the breed that I really like and not worry about selling them I'ld probably have Gyr.

 

[Tod Dague]

I have found that capacity makes the most difference when quantity is good but the quality is poor. That said I have a range of cattle from 5-6.5. I keep them because they work. I have had others that didn't work with in those same frame scores. I prefer cows in the frame 5.5-6.
One of my 6.5 frame cows weighes less than my small framed cows, isn't all that deep, wide, or much to look at, but she is easy fleshing, milks very well, and enough growth to produce some whooper calves.

 

[lead_dog]

OK, well....at least I'm clear now on what I need to do for my situation. The feedback has been really helpful.

 

[MikeC]

The problem with breeding small framed cows to large framed bulls is that you don;t alwasy get the average of the 2. You may get some in the middle but there will still be those that tend towards the bulls size and those that tend towards the cow size.

Haven't experienced that problem. Maybe an outlier or two that is larger or smaller, but that happens anyway, even if the bulls and cows are the same frame score.

Generally, in my case, it's the average of the two.

None of my bull customers have ever complained about that either.

 

[Oldtimer]

Since I have a tough time explaining what I'm wanting in my angus cows- I posted some pictures in the "checking cows" thread....These are the easy fleshing , moderate framed (4-6) type cows I keep striving for....The ones that at Christmas time in Montana are out grazing with no supplements (except mineral)- and spend most their time standing around taking in the sunshine....Leaving me with time to play on the computer ;-) :lol:

 

[DOC HARRIS]

The OPERATIVE word here is PROFIT - and PROFIT must be considered in it's strictest interrpretations - when all costs of production and maintenance have been taken in consideration and the bottom line is glaringly "IN YOUR FACE!"

The manner and methods of determination may vary to some degree, but the costs involved in beef production involve more than just $$ Outlay. Housing, pasture, feed cost per year, % interest on land cost, hay, property tax, interest on your investment - all those "little things" add up very quickly to "BIG THINGS"! . . . and your COW MUST pay her way! She is NOT on Welfare!

By reducing the overall frame size of your cow HERD, you may be able to run MORE producing smaller cows on the same land as larger cows, and still get a higher weaning wt. per cow exposed and a higher weaning weight as a % of the COWS wt., thereby increasing your PROFIT of doing BU$INE$$.

That said - my vote is for a general average frame size of "5", all other variables being equal. Frame size is just a number. "Management" is the key answer! This subject has been cussed and discussed for years, and most producers will ignore the hard, cold facts of realism, and breed what they want to breed.

DOC HARRIS