F-1 Hereford/Brahman Question

[TXCOWBOY]

I am new to register to the site, but visited many times and learned alot. Thank you all.

I'm currently running registered Angus, but ranch next to me is running certified F-1 B/H cross. Naturally, I am curious. I read many threads on F-1 crosses and need some confusion cleared up for me.

What difference do you get from Brahman Sire to Hereford Dam or breeding it the other way? Hereford Sire to Brahman Dam. Mainly want to know what differences will occur. Does the whiteface/tigerstripe look get produced both ways? Heterosis? Hybrid Vigor? Is it influenced in the way you cross?

Also wondering if polled Herefords will have a dominant trait if crossed to Brahman to produce polled F-1 calves.

Thanks

 

[txag]

What difference do you get from Brahman Sire to Hereford Dam or breeding it the other way? Hereford Sire to Brahman Dam. Mainly want to know what differences will occur.

different mothering abilities of each of the breeds. hereford bulls on brahman cows will generally be lower bw calves than the other way around.

Does the whiteface/tigerstripe look get produced both ways?

just as likely either way. not all will be tiger-striped. some will be chocolates or browns.

Heterosis? Hybrid Vigor? Is it influenced in the way you cross?

equal either way.

Also wondering if polled Herefords will have a dominant trait if crossed to Brahman to produce polled F-1 calves.

yes, polled is dominant. if the polled hereford is homozygous polled you should only get polled calves. but.........brahmans have an extra weird horn gene so you could still see some horns but they're usually more like scurs or banana horns.

Thanks

welcome to the boards.

 

[TXCOWBOY]

Thanks for your help txag!

I'm considering starting from scartch and developing some F-1 repalcement heifers of my own. Considering a Charlois terminal sire program down the road to see what type of performance vs. calving ease problems I may be faced with.

Seems to me that you would want the cow to be Brahman for the milk and mothering ability. Could help at weaning to sell off the potentially larger steers. My logic may be flawed though.

 

[Arnold Ziffle]

TCCOWBOY: A few years ago I asked similar questions of my doctor, who happens to be a member of a very well known Brahman breeding family over in Hempstead, Texas and who is also active in the cattle business. His comments regarding matters such as the heterosis, "tigerstriping", chocolates, etc. were essentially the same as what txag just posted to you. He also told me that he had just bought around 300 Hereford cows to put with Brahman cows, but that that his primary reason for doing so was that in our neck of the woods one can generally buy quality Hereford cows for a good bit less money than comparable quality Brahman cows. Using a Charolais bull on F-1 Brahman/Hereford COWS for a terminal cross is pretty common and seems to result in pretty dramatic expression of heterosis. Based on what I see at the replacement sales most bred "tiger" heifers are sold bred to black Angus or black Brangus bulls.

 

[TXCOWBOY]

Seems to me that F-1 heifers bred to brangus would be counter productive. You just introduced the 3/8 Brahman back into the mix.

I noticed also at sales that F-1 were bred back to Angus. Why would you not opt to sell a terminal cross bred heifer at the sale barn? Probabaly has to do with the finishing ability of the calf rather than the size. Any light on this?

 

[jerry27150]

tx, how you figure brangus on that cross would be counter productive, i think it would give you mostly black or black baldie calves that were 7/16 brahma

 

[TXCOWBOY]

I was just looking at it from the angle of Hereford for finishing/calving ease. Brahman for milk/maternal. Then adding a Continental breed to give you the size aspect. Not a knock on brangus or black angus cows.

My frame of reference for spending the time, money, and effort for a program like this is to give you most lbs per cow exposed.

 

[Arnold Ziffle]

TXCOWBOY --- A belated "Welcome".

All I was trying to say is that, once you have the F-1s, I just happen to see alot of them (as HEIFERS) being sold as "bred black" and oftentimes they are bred to Brangus as opposed to Angus. Why sometimes Brangus and not always Angus -- I don't particularly know. I know that most folks these days want the F-1 heifer's calves to be black and to be born alive, and having more Brahman influence in the resulting first calf via use of the Brangus as opposed to Angus bull apparently is not troubling to many folks. When I started out I bought 18 bred Beefmaster and "tiger" heifers and about 3/4 of them were bred to black Brangus. A little extra "ear" didn't bother me a bit -- I was just praying for no birthing trainwrecks!. I guess that sometimes it may be that the rancher way down South just has had a little (or a lot in my case) more trouble with keeping an Angus bull than a Brangus bull. (Obviously a moot issue if the bull is housed in a nitrogen tank). I think that in the vast majority of cases the heifer calves born to those first calf F-1s are going to be sold and not kept as replacements in any event.

But clearly you are right, the Brangus sired calves out of the F-1s will have 43.75% Brahman blood and that's a good bit more than the often desired limit of 25% (which seems to be a line of demarcation of sorts for feeder calves, and is based on MARC testing). Once the F-1s have had their first or even second calf, if you are interested mostly in maximizing the pounds of beef to sell it would seem to me that a Charolais sire would be the ticket, especially if you are not an absentee owner. If interested in trying for a higher quality grade carcass, black Angus sire. I hope at least some of the above makes sense (and is correct :lol: ).

 

[TXCOWBOY]

Arnold-

Thanks for all the great information. It makes perfect sense. I have been running black angus cows for a while. I've starting to gather info and explore other options out there. I really haven't had any real problems calving my angus at all. Seem to be on cruise control. Knock on wood.

At the end of the day I guess the million dollar question is what good is crossing for vigor that potentially could rob you from having a calf on the ground. Seems like being a contrarian by running non-black floppies could be an issue to consider too at the sale barn. Everything is a trade off.

Thanks for the info again!

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Don't forget there are terminal sires in nearly every breed. There are Herefords or Angus that can give you all the size you want. Ever seen those three thousand pound, 63 inch tall Canadian bred Hereford bulls? What about this for a cross that will finish: Braford cows with a Murray Grey bull. You are then putting three English breeds to work with the Brahman influence, as Murray Greys are developed from Angus and Shorthorn.

 

[Ryder]

Brahman would be better able to handle heat, insects etc. You will have more cows than bulls. So it would seem that the greater advantage would be to have Brahman cows if you have a choice.

 

[Scotty]

Seen F1 X Brangus. Nice looking claves. Didn't look as if they had anymore ear than a Brangus. If you are going to feed these or put them in a lot there are alot of good Brangus sires that are known for marbling and such. I have hard of several that there calves will go CAB a high % of the time.


Scotty

 

[cherokeeruby]

Brahman would be better able to handle heat, insects etc. You will have more cows than bulls. So it would seem that the greater advantage would be to have Brahman cows if you have a choice.

Agree with Ryder, the only drawback is the relative cost of the Brahman vs. Hereford. You could try to find high blooded Brahmans not necessarily Registered or even 100% if you insist on registered they are pretty pricy these days. There are lots and lots of commerical Herefords around that are close to 100% hereford. If you can scare up some Black Baldies a Brahman bull would make some fine calves out of them and the heifers could be bred to a Black bull for the first calf or two and then a large terminal sire after that. Should be excellent producing cows.

 

[BC]

When I lived in south central Texas, I saw F1 producers use Hereford bulls on Brahman cows and Brahman bulls on Hereford cows. Both have some draw backs, but the resulting female from either cross is far superior to either of the parents.
As far as putting a Brangus back on a F1 female, the resulting heifer calf is as close a replica (7/16 Brahman influence) as you can get. Breeders have done that when they need more replacements and did not want to pay the premiums that F1 Brahman x herefords command.

 

[TXCOWBOY]

BC-

The light just came on about the reasons why to breed F-1 back to Brangus. The replacment cost side...

Could you tell me how you arrived at the 7/16 brahman influence? Brangus is 3/8 Brahman 5/8 angus. Do you assume a "golden certified" F-1 is an even 50/50? Need a little math lesson here.

 

[cherokeeruby]

BC-

The light just came on about the reasons why to breed F-1 back to Brangus. The replacment cost side...

Could you tell me how you arrived at the 7/16 brahman influence? Brangus is 3/8 Brahman 5/8 angus. Do you assume a "golden certified" F-1 is an even 50/50? Need a little math lesson here.

The Golden Certified better be 50/50. To be Golden Certified ABBA has to inspect the herd and certify that each parent is a purebred. Only one side has to be Registered I believe.

 

[jerry27150]

brangus is 3/8 or 6/16, f1's are 1/2 or 8/16, if crossed they make 7/16th