Drought Observations

[Rmc]

Feeding hay is self inflicted and not very sporting when raising cattle.

ok. Y'all've done it again! After reading this thread I'm convinced that I'd prefer to never feed hay.

Hope y'all got some of the recent rains. Still some time to grow a bit of fall/winter grazing in some places.

It's amazing to me how different areas are. Down south can't feed hay a month and turn a profit. Temps never get much below freezing.
Area up north feed hay at least 4-5 months a year and can have a month or two that never get up to freezing yet turn a profit. Who woulda thunk it !

 

[Brute 23]

It's amazing to me how different areas are. Down south can't feed hay a month and turn a profit. Temps never get much below freezing.
Area up north feed hay at least 4-5 months a year and can have a month or two that never get up to freezing yet turn a profit. Who woulda thunk it !

I'm more amazed two areas can have the same numbers and get two different answers

 

[callmefence]

It's amazing to me how different areas are. Down south can't feed hay a month and turn a profit. Temps never get much below freezing.
Area up north feed hay at least 4-5 months a year and can have a month or two that never get up to freezing yet turn a profit. Who woulda thunk it !

There's some nature involved in that.
Grasses with a short growing season produce a lot in a short time which is conducive to good haying conditions.
Dormant grasses under snowfall use less nitrogen than land with grass that grows year round. Snow also adds nutrients.

 

[greybeard]

Slow, cold steady rain since around 6:31am here, interrupted by short periods of thunder/lightning downpour for a few minutes. Seems to be moving ENE.

 

[callmefence]

Slow, cold steady rain since around 6:31am here, interrupted by short periods of thunder/lightning downpour for a few minutes. Seems to be moving ENE.

Still raining here. Pretty good storm came through about daylight

 

[Otha]

I've got grass that doesn't lay down like that. Furthermore, research says save your native grasses for winter stockpile, not the improved. It holds protein content a bit better, and, cows confirm this by hitting it first in the winter. So I have about 75 acres of native stuff I don't graze from August to first killing frost, hoping it will grow a lot in the fall. I leave my cows off of it until about 2 to three weeks after that first hard freeze, and rotate them into the last 20 acres of it about Jan 15, hoping march will see some decent green Texas winter grass in the rested fields. Got a few acres of oat food plots for deer that I also try to strategically graze if opportunity allows, giving a boost here and there.

Also, 30% cooked tubs bring the protein content back up, so a must in my opinion. Stockpile has about 5% to 8% protein content. Cows can usually bring that amount to 8% needed for a maintenance diet by eating 1lb of tub per day. If you are there, feeding cubes is a cheaper way to supplement protein. If you want the cheapest, liquid molasses with mineral supplement added.

Finally, letting cows lose a bcs of about .5 in the winter is not a big deal if they start out 5.25/5.5 or above. Stocking rate does need to be low and I like to rotationally graze my paddocks. Also researching using solar charged electric fence to further subdivide. I rotate cattle about once a month.

I have met a guy at the NRCS who says he never feeds hay, so this method has 'expert' proponents.

But a caveat might be related to soil types. We've got clay loam where I'm at. It doesn't leach nutrients hardly at all and holds water quite well. I think Comanche has quite a bit of sandy soil. Might affect things quite a bit.

Yes were I live is just a big sand dump. And unfortunately the only ground that has native grass is the hill tops that are too poor for the coastal to spread to. That stuff is a weed to a native grass stand. We are trying to get a little patch of native type grasses in the next few years but haven't got the coastal killed out of the patch yet. I wonder if a more course stem Bermuda like Tifton would stockpile better?

 

[Rmc]

There's some nature involved in that.
Grasses with a short growing season produce a lot in a short time which is conducive to good haying conditions.
Dormant grasses under snowfall use less nitrogen than land with grass that grows year round. Snow also adds nutrients.

WOW now that's an interesting point of view.
Please provide links to any and all studies that show that snow adds nutrients to the ground. Please also provide documentation and studies that show areas that receive 18 inches or less of moisture a year and have dormant temperatures for up to 6 months a year. produce as much or more total feed then areas with higher amounts of moisture and little no temps below freezing.
I am also interested in any documentation that says the Shallow top soil found in most cold weather climates is equal to the top soil sometimes up to 6 feet deep in warmer climates.

 

[callmefence]

WOW now that's an interesting point of view.
Please provide links to any and all studies that show that snow adds nutrients to the ground. Please also provide documentation and studies that show areas that receive 18 inches or less of moisture a year and have dormant temperatures for up to 6 months a year. produce as much or more total feed then areas with higher amounts of moisture and little no temps below freezing.
I am also interested in any documentation that says the Shallow top soil found in most cold weather climates is equal to the top soil sometimes up to 6 feet deep in warmer climates.

You seem to live by links and YouTube.
So now you have something to do.lol

 

[Rmc]

You seem to live by links and YouTube.
So now you have something to do.lol

Ok I will put it a little less nicely and maybe something you can understand.
Your opinion is nothing but a steaming pile of. That has little to no basis in facts.

 

[callmefence]

Ok I will put it a little less nicely and maybe something you can understand.
Your opinion is nothing but a steaming pile of. That has little to no basis in facts.

Could you post some links to support that.

 

[Otha]

WOW now that's an interesting point of view.
Please provide links to any and all studies that show that snow adds nutrients to the ground. Please also provide documentation and studies that show areas that receive 18 inches or less of moisture a year and have dormant temperatures for up to 6 months a year. produce as much or more total feed then areas with higher amounts of moisture and little no temps below freezing.
I am also interested in any documentation that says the Shallow top soil found in most cold weather climates is equal to the top soil sometimes up to 6 feet deep in warmer climates.

I'm no expert about climate, rainfall, or soils but you've got me thinking. Which would be likely to have better soil, an area that averages 15 inches a year and has fewer or less sever droughts or an area that averages 30 inches and has more frequent sever droughts? Seems like sever drought can help to keep the top soil level pretty thin.
I'm not trying to say you're place fits into either of the conclusions, just thinking about it.

However, every old farmer around here loves to see a snow fall on there winter wheat. They swear it makes it grow like 50 lbs of nitrogen would(that's defiantly an exaggeration). But it doesn't snow here most years so they do have a control to test it against.

 

[Otha]

Is there Nitrogen in Snow?

A blanket of post-thaw snow is currently falling over parts of the Midwest from Oklahoma to the Great Lakes. A subscriber asked a question this morning as a joke, but a little research showed that there is nitrogen in snow. In fact, snows before or after the ground has thawed can yield some...

www.agweb.com

This very un-scientific article claims 5-10 lbs of nitrogen from a snow falling on unfrozen ground.

 

[Rmc]

I'm no expert about climate, rainfall, or soils but you've got me thinking. Which would be likely to have better soil, an area that averages 15 inches a year and has fewer or less sever droughts or an area that averages 30 inches and has more frequent sever droughts? Seems like sever drought can help to keep the top soil level pretty thin.
I'm not trying to say you're place fits into either of the conclusions, just thinking about it.

So you are saying a perminant drought is better then a occasional drought?
Most places that receive less than 15 inches of rain do so in the months below freezing as snow. And receive as little as 1/4 there annual moisture at temperatures that allow actual growth of plants.
How do you think cold temperatures effect the microbes in the soil.? How do you get good topsoil? How much organic breakdown do you think you will achieve during freezing weather?
What do soil temps have to be for nitrification to occur?i

 

[callmefence]

I'm pretty confident rmc has never rolled a bale of hay and probably hasn't known which end of the cow to put in for to long. And I bet he learned that on YouTube

 

[Otha]

So you are saying a perminant drought is better then a occasional drought?
Most places that receive less than 15 inches of rain do so in the months below freezing as snow. And receive as little as 1/4 there annual moisture at temperatures that allow actual growth of plants.
How do you think cold temperatures effect the microbes in the soil.? How do you get good topsoil? How much organic breakdown do you think you will achieve during freezing weather?
What do soil temps have to be for nitrification to occur?i

If you'll read it again I wasn't saying anything. I used question marks because I was asking for thoughts on the subject from you and others.
I'm curious of the things that affect top soil depths other than average rainfall and base soil types.

 

[Rmc]

I'm pretty confident rmc has never rolled a bale of hay and probably hasn't known which end of the cow to put in for to long. And I bet he learned that on YouTube

Back to the same old attacking the individual because you can no longer defend your opinions . So is your next step to take your ball and go home?

 

[callmefence]

Back to the same old attacking the individual because you can no longer defend your opinions . So is your next step to take your ball and go home?

Same as you do everytime someone disagrees with ya. Your the classic give it out but can't take it. And no I'll be setting right here.

 

[Rmc]

Is there Nitrogen in Snow?

A blanket of post-thaw snow is currently falling over parts of the Midwest from Oklahoma to the Great Lakes. A subscriber asked a question this morning as a joke, but a little research showed that there is nitrogen in snow. In fact, snows before or after the ground has thawed can yield some...

www.agweb.com

This very un-scientific article claims 5-10 lbs of nitrogen from a snow falling on unfrozen ground.

Try doing some research on how much nitrogen is in rain. You will find that rain actually contains more nitrogen then snow.
The claim that snow contains more nitrogen then rain is not backed by any research I can find. In fact the opposite.
Rain from thunderstorms contains more nitrogen then rain from non thunderstorms

 

[callmefence]

Is there Nitrogen in Snow?

A blanket of post-thaw snow is currently falling over parts of the Midwest from Oklahoma to the Great Lakes. A subscriber asked a question this morning as a joke, but a little research showed that there is nitrogen in snow. In fact, snows before or after the ground has thawed can yield some...

www.agweb.com

This very un-scientific article claims 5-10 lbs of nitrogen from a snow falling on unfrozen ground.

There's plenty on the web about the benefits of snow. Common sense (which some here lack) tells us plants with a short season grow and mature faster.
Frozen soil also fractures and heaves which can be beneficial. Record hay crops existed in Texas after the big freeze.

 

[Rmc]

But your claim was that these benefits far out way the downside of below freezing temps . And the benifit of rain actually having more nitrogen then snow.You are claiming the reason why some in the north can feed hay for six months and turn a profit while some in the south can't feed a month of hay and make a profit.
That doesn't even get into the increased nutrition requirements of cattle in freezing temperatures compared to the nutrient requirements of cattle in the south.
You still have offered no viable explanation or proof of your claim that those in the north with freezing temperatures have a environmental advantage that increases profits then those that raise Cattle in the south and in nonfreezing environments.