Does more pounds per acre make up for being docked at the sale barn for small frame size?

[Warren Allison]

For what it's worth, I've had a few BWF crazies too, the worst cow I've had was a BWF I bought as a heifer. She was bought in a group of 500 weight heifers and she had gotten bred young before I bought her. So I kept her to calve out. she seemed a little flighty but it wasn't until after she had her first calf that she became full aggressive. She would then come after you whether she had a calf or not. I kept her around for a few years because I dreaded trying to load her and could usually work around her just being cautious of where she was and not getting to close. One day she came after me uphill from a longways off and that was the last straw she went down the road the next time she came up to the barn.
Also had another purchased BWF heifer that I sold in a bred heifer sale. Nothing out of the ordinary while I had her, but the folks that bought her wanted to bring her back for a refund. Apparently she snapped somewhere between the stockyards where the sale was and when they offloaded her, and I agreed to thecrefund. She was unglued at that time and I dreaded to try to load her too.
They told me later at the stockyards that after selling her she ran out the ring straight into a gate and broke her neck.
Wild cattle are something we don't want and we try to select for docility above pretty much everything else, because if they are so wild or crazy that you can't be around them then there's too much risk involved in my opinion for anybody to be around them.

I still cant get over how gentle those two Brahmas were yesterday. When Clay got there, we went in the pen with them for him to see. I stood there leaning over the back of one smoking a cigarette, and he did the same with the other one. We stood their til we finished and they never moved. When we went to load the, I just walked between them and they went right up to the trailer door. Then they stopped, sniffing and snorting at the floor, stamping their feet and wringing their tails. One of the sale barn boys came running up behind them, yelling, and waving his hot shot. I stopped him and said :" Shut up., fool!", while Clay took the hot shot from his hand. He told him he could have it back, but if he touched one with that, it would most likely be the last thing he remembered for a few days til he got over his concussion! I just let them stand there for a few minutes, then they just walked in. Had that fool hit them with q hot shot, we would be chasing them, all over Gordon County today. Or somebody would. I would most likely be in the pokey for battery! LOL How they are handled makes a lot of difference, and each cow has its own personality.

 

[Warren Allison]

There is a local rancher I was talking to at the sale barn a few weeks ago and he said that they have had problems with those bigger cows not getting bred back. It sounded like he was speaking from experience.

Sounds like they need taller bulls!

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Thread has taken an interesting turn. There may be a correlation between frame size and fertility, but there are usually other issues at play other than frame size when fertility is an issue. Nutrition, as already mentioned, is usually key in most cases. Environmental factors also play a role, more so than frame size is ever going to. Fescue toxicosis can be and is a major factor in fertility where tall fescue (KY31) is prevalent - a large part of the eastern US.

Here is another complicating factor in this frame size fertility debate. Fertility is without question associated with body condition. Typically, it is more difficult to in larger framed cattle, or the larger framed cattle in of itself? Or both? This issue is far from being black or white. It's more like 1,000 shades of gray, and then you have to ask, how important is it really in relation to other factors?

 

[gcreekrch]

Thread has taken an interesting turn. There may be a correlation between frame size and fertility, but there are usually other issues at play other than frame size when fertility is an issue. Nutrition, as already mentioned, is usually key in most cases. Environmental factors also play a role, more so than frame size is ever going to. Fescue toxicosis can be and is a major factor in fertility where tall fescue (KY31) is prevalent - a large part of the eastern US.

Here is another complicating factor in this frame size fertility debate. Fertility is without question associated with body condition. Typically, it is more difficult to in larger framed cattle, or the larger framed cattle in of itself? Or both? This issue is far from being black or white. It's more like 1,000 shades of gray, and then you have to ask, how important is it really in relation to other factors?

A lot of producers with bigger than average cows aren't willing to feed them enough to make them perform. Still goes back to dollars per cow.
I watched some calves sell on Wednesday, know the operation. Pivots on irrigated pasture, fertilizer, 1700 lb cows, all go through a barn. Ours are smaller cows at 1250 to 1350 lbs, poorer quality feed, no pipes, no fertilizer, calve later and try to avoid the barn. 175 miles farther from the scale…..
Their heavy steer calves were beautiful! 165 lbs heavier than our heavy steers but only $200 per head more. I am thinking it cost far more than $200 to get them that weight.

 

[Allenw]

A lot of producers with bigger than average cows aren't willing to feed them enough to make them perform. Still goes back to dollars per cow.
I watched some calves sell on Wednesday, know the operation. Pivots on irrigated pasture, fertilizer, 1700 lb cows, all go through a barn. Ours are smaller cows at 1250 to 1350 lbs, poorer quality feed, no pipes, no fertilizer, calve later and try to avoid the barn. 175 miles farther from the scale…..
Their heavy steer calves were beautiful! 165 lbs heavier than our heavy steers but only $200 per head more. I am thinking it cost far more than $200 to get them that weight.

A very good point.

 

[Rmc]

Most people forget profit isn't most dollars earned. It is what is left over after all expenses are paid. Don't matter How much you make if you spend more then you make you will be broke!
A big factor in larger framed cows is the larger the frame the longer it takes for them to develop and start cycling.

A lot of producers with bigger than average cows aren't willing to feed them enough to make them perform. Still goes back to dollars per cow.
I watched some calves sell on Wednesday, know the operation. Pivots on irrigated pasture, fertilizer, 1700 lb cows, all go through a barn. Ours are smaller cows at 1250 to 1350 lbs, poorer quality feed, no pipes, no fertilizer, calve later and try to avoid the barn. 175 miles farther from the scale…..
Their heavy steer calves were beautiful! 165 lbs heavier than our heavy steers but only $200 per head more. I am thinking it cost far more than $200 to get them that weight.

You nailed the entire topic of this thread. Is it more profitable to raise smaller framed cows than large framed animals?
Is having larger calves to sell worth the additional expenses ect. That come along with the bigger cows?
In my area and many others it doesn't!

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

But what if you had a group of 1700lb cows weaning those +200$ calves on the same low quality feed, no barn, etc?

The question is then does that cow eat +200$ worth of feed over the 1300lb cow every year?

From my numbers on my farm the answer to that question is No.

 

[gcreekrch]

But what if you had a group of 1700lb cows weaning those +200lb calves on the same low quality feed, no barn, etc?

The question is then does that cow eat +200$ worth of feed over the 1300lb cow every year?

From my numbers on my farm the answer to that question is No.

They won't do it here on our feed. Maybe if you weren't fertilizing or pumping water or winter calving. Compare apples to apples. I don't want small framed little cows either, see them at the neighbours and their calves bring less in comparison to average every year.

 

[andybob]

Busy moving down to Cornwall so am too busy to take part at the moment, here are a link to an article on grazing and the Florida workshop on selecting grass based genetics; https://www.farmersweekly.co.za/animals/cattle/man-cattle-veld/

 

[gcreekrch]

Busy moving down to Cornwall so am too busy to take part at the moment, here are a link to an article on grazing and the Florida workshop on selecting grass based genetics; https://www.farmersweekly.co.za/animals/cattle/man-cattle-veld/

What are grass based genetics? Our neighbor bought 3 Pharos bulls a few years ago. Their pedigrees all had mainstream names in their blood and they were fed differently than mainstream. One had as bad of feet as I have ever seen on a bull.
Saw the same in a group of Diamond D bulls another guy shipped north because grain ruins feet.

 

[Travlr]

A lot of producers with bigger than average cows aren't willing to feed them enough to make them perform.

While condition affects breeding ease, overly fat cows don't breed as well either... and have more trouble calving. I've never fed my cattle to be fat, and in fact prefer they show some rib. And "if" they can carry 1500 pounds I'd prefer to keep them a hundred or so pounds lighter and I'd expect them to breed better because they are lighter. If they were down around 1200 they would be too skinny and I'd expect them to have more issues breeding, just like if they are too heavy.

 

[gcreekrch]

While condition affects breeding ease, overly fat cows don't breed as well either... and have more trouble calving. I've never fed my cattle to be fat, and in fact prefer they show some rib. And "if" they can carry 1500 pounds I'd prefer to keep them a hundred or so pounds lighter and I'd expect them to breed better because they are lighter. If they were down around 1200 they would be too skinny and I'd expect them to have more issues breeding, just like if they are too heavy.

Did I say they needed to be fat?

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Did I say they needed to be fat?

No, you didn't. I think @Travlr was referring back to my post where I was inferring that cows in poor/low/skinny cows (below optimum) did not breed well. @Travlr was adding to that by noting that overly conditioned cows have fertility/breeding issues as well and I agree with completely.

 

[Ebenezer]

"What are grass based genetics?" A marketing term.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

"What are grass based genetics?" A marketing term.

Buzz word.

 

[Rmc]

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/AS1.pdf

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

It maybe a buzzword but there is something to grass based genetics.

Early on I bought a group fancy looking registered black Angus heifers. They came from a farm that had alfalfa pastures, alfalfa hay, corn silage, etc. I brought them here to our native grass pasture and hay. Those girls would eat 24/7 and lose weight doing it. Calved out the first round and never maintained condition and raised dink Calves.

Since then I've bought and bred cows that come from lines of cows raised and thriving on "un-improved" pastures and hay. I ain't no scientist but there is something different about them.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

It maybe a buzzword but there is something to grass based genetics.

Early on I bought a group fancy looking registered black Angus heifers. They came from a farm that had alfalfa pastures, alfalfa hay, corn silage, etc. I brought them here to our native grass pasture and hay. Those girls would eat 24/7 and lose weight doing it. Calved out the first round and never maintained condition and raised dink Calves.

Since then I've bought and bred cows that come from lines of cows raised and thriving on "un-improved" pastures and hay. I ain't no scientist but there is something different about them.

Yes and no. At one time, I suspect most if not all cattle were genetically based for grass. Adaptation of genetics likely has been to select animals that are more adapted to grain. There is a difference now, but I suspect "grass based", if that is what you want to call it, was here long before "grain fed".

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I agree. When grass was all there was it was a "survival of the fittest" type situation. If they couldn't hack it on whatever grass was growing then then were dinner to something.

Now people have bred and perpetuated lines of cows that truly can't flourish on grass alone. They need extra groceries to get them thru.

 

[Ebenezer]

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/AS1.pdf

Current challenges of local grass-finished beef production in Hawai'i
• Product is still inconsistent in quality as to marbling and tenderness
• Poor post-weaning growth, and late maturity, as animals are being finished later than at the suggested 25–30 months of age
• Limited supply is available, so more animals are needed to satisfy the growing demand of young cattle for grass-finished beef production.

From the conclusion statements above - it doesn't look like a good reference. The kill data looked like they killed them too soon and had minimal BF and grades were OK. One money loser on grass fed cattle is always going to be a lower % HCW/LW.

I don't see a clear divide in cattle that are "grass finish types" and "other".