Does more pounds per acre make up for being docked at the sale barn for small frame size?

[blackladies]

There is an argument out there for a smaller frame size and that you can run more pounds per acre by having a smaller framed animal. Seems like they are docked hard at the sale barn though. Say you could run 100 animals instead of 75. To me that would mean 25 more chances of something happening to the cow or calf as well. Was watching a YouTube video and the bull almost seemed like a miniature.

 

[Dave]

Moderation in everything. I want cows that are 1,100 to 1,300 pounds in their working cloths. The smaller frame get docked a lot here. The big 1.500 pound plus cows eat too much especially hay in the winter.

 

[RDFF]

IF... you have a "direct marketing" angle for all or most of your animals (be that either as beef or as breeding stock), I think it can pay just fine, because of no dockage. The benefits of "lighter on the soil" come into play some too. But if you're having to market through the sale ring, I'm with Dave... you still have to have something the packers and finishers are willing to pay you for too. Moderation in everything...

 

[Hpacres440p]

From folks I know who ran their lowlines through sale barn one time (only once-it cost them that much)-when calves were at 1.12, his sold for .45. "Pounds per acre" works for direct marketing or beef sales, IF you also have a processor without a minimum requirement. The ribeyes from Lowline/Aberdeen crosses are still nice sized, maybe even more friendly for those watching portion size. Kill fee is the same no matter the animal size though-so to get same lbs of beef, there may be an higher cost from more in kill fees (more animals needed). There is a little more effort required for marketing. Sale barns are out unless there is a dedicated sale.
I like my 50% or lower % Aberdeen, for their moderate size, but I'll never get @Jeanne - Simme Valley's 700 lb carcass at 12 months, no matter how much corn they get.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Have you considered selling privately? That kind of animal appears to sell well on FB groups. Don't let the packers rule the roost. There are options. Just requires a bit of outside the box thinking. Market them to grass finishers. There is demand for it.

I'm gonna try it next year.

 

[Brute 23]

Pounds per acres are the same no matter the size of the cow. You may run more head with smaller cattle or less head with larger cattle but the pounds are the same.

 

[Travlr]

Moderation in everything. I want cows that are 1,100 to 1,300 pounds in their working cloths. The smaller frame get docked a lot here. The big 1.500 pound plus cows eat too much especially hay in the winter.

I've had both. In Arkansas the preferred cow was 11/1200 pounds and in SD it was 14/1500.

If I was to say which *I* preferred, it's really a toss up. I don't necessarily think a bigger cow eats so much that she should be discounted. I just don't see that as a valid argument when she is more likely to raise a bigger, higher priced calf. As far as working them, the smaller cattle are less intimidating but the bigger ones are more likely to be calmer. Most equipment seems to be built for 1200 pound cows and there's some struggle to wedge bigger cows through. In Arkansas the bigger cows didn't get any disrespect, but in SD the smaller cows did. Not a lot, but it was there.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I've had both. In Arkansas the preferred cow was 11/1200 pounds and in SD it was 14/1500.

If I was to say which *I* preferred, it's really a toss up. I don't necessarily think a bigger cow eats so much that she should be discounted. I just don't see that as a valid argument when she is more likely to raise a bigger, higher priced calf. As far as working them, the smaller cattle are less intimidating but the bigger ones are more likely to be calmer. Most equipment seems to be built for 1200 pound cows and there's some struggle to wedge bigger cows through. In Arkansas the bigger cows didn't get any disrespect, but in SD the smaller cows did. Not a lot, but it was there.

1300 seems to be common here. Some like em big though.

 

[Rmc]

I think feed efficiency is a huge factor. 55-70 percent of cost to keep a cow is feed cost. So cost of cow feed plays a big part of profit or loss.
Many forget profit is not gross revenue. It is what is left of revenue after ALL expenses.

 

[Silver]

Many people don't realize that if you eliminate all expenses you will have also eliminated all income.
It is important to keep an eye on expenses, but it also is important to remember that expenses also generate income.

 

[RustyTub]

Sounds like I am with what seems to be the majority opinion that American Aberdeen/Lowlines are raised and sold for private sale as quarters, halves or whole sides of beef.

That is my business model. Aside from the enjoyment and challenges of animal husbandry, the sale of offspring help offset the cost of what I will admit is a hobby.

A man I bought some registered Aberdeen had a herd of close to eighty. He sold seed stock and private beef. That's where I got the attached graphic showing the benefits of small frame livestock. Having owned cattle for less than 10 years, I am by no means an expert but the graphic does tell an interesting story

 

[blackladies]

So the consensus seems to be it could make sense if your willing to direct market instead of the sale barn. Probably not something I want to get into right now. Can respect the ability of different size animals and different breeds to perform better in certain situations though. Seems like some people get hung up on this is the best breed or best size though when there are tons of factors that could determine what could work in specific situations.

 

[Logan52]

In 1972 I purchased a herd of 18 registered Angus from a neighbor who was selling his beef cattle in order to begin a dairy operation.
These came from the old "belt buckle" stock, ranging from 725 pounds to 1100 pounds tops,
Ist year I bred them to a small Angus and got small framed calves that weaned under 500 pounds.
2nd year I bred them to a one of the new big headed Charolais bulls and had a disaster. Lost a cow and several calves but the calves that survived did grow and sell well.
3rd year I bred them to a nice and framier horned Hereford. This cross really clicked and the calves were some of the best I ever raised, but still a little small framed by today's standards.
Over the years I tried many breeds and crosses, often bought open dairy cross heifers at a discount to incorporate into the herd.
Cow size increased over the years and by the early 2010s my cows were weighing 1400 to 1700 pounds on average with some even larger. I had nice calves that were near market top prices except when a little off colored [thanks to a lone shorthorn, a red gelbvieh and Red poll bull].
Putting up enough hay is my big restriction now and over the last few years I have been returning to smaller black cows as a goal [1200 to 1300 pounds].
They raise a nice calf bred to a good black bull and consume noticeably less hay. The downside to be avoided is an occasional calf that grades short and suffers terribly on price.

 

[Hpacres440p]

Sounds like I am with what seems to be the majority opinion that American Aberdeen/Lowlines are raised and sold for private sale as quarters, halves or whole sides of beef.

That is my business model. Aside from the enjoyment and challenges of animal husbandry, the sale of offspring help offset the cost of what I will admit is a hobby.

A man I bought some registered Aberdeen had a herd of close to eighty. He sold seed stock and private beef. That's where I got the attached graphic showing the benefits of small frame livestock. Having owned cattle for less than 10 years, I am by no means an expert but the graphic does tell an interesting story View attachment 36476

I would increase the difference between "standard" breed averages and Lowlines. At 18 mo, unless you get a larger framed bloodline, the 418 lb carcass is on the high average side for a full blood, especially grass only. 528 seems low for an 18 month old "standard" size steer, I think the Wagyu is skewing that a bit. I think you can safely plan for a 200 lb difference in carcass size. Where the Aberdeen do seem to excel is in dressout, due to typically smaller bone structure-however, 76% is pretty rare. High 60s to low 70s is more typical, depending on the processor skill. (I had 50% with one and was pretty unhappy about that). They also marble nicely and are pretty darn tender.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

That chart is ancient. Trangie Station "developed" the Lowline (no longer a breed - now Aberdine Angus) back in 1929 to 1964. Think about what it says. Look at the "breeds" listed and the carcass weight at 18 months old.
Brute said "Pounds per acres are the same no matter the size of the cow. You may run more head with smaller cattle or less head with larger cattle but the pounds are the same."
Think about that. Very accurate.
Also, every animal takes just as long as far as labor - every cow has to be handled, vaccinated, calved, get bred, record keeping. Cow size does not cut down on labor/time. Also, most vaccines are by head - not weight. Deworming is about the only thing we do that is based on weight - and antibiotics.
It has been proven that maintenance is not linear. An 1800# cow does not eat twice as much as a 900# cow. (extreme example, but accurate)
Mainly, your COWS should be sized for your land. Little cows on my land would be rolly polly toads. Total waste of good land. I have BIG cows. They are not supplemented in any way - strictly grass and hay. All my hay is put up on my land along with rotational grazing. But, on the other hand, you would not want my cows on poor growing land.

 

[Wall Murray Greys]

I really enjoy this discussion. Me personally, I lean toward the "smaller" cattle. Although, I don't consider them small, I think of them as moderate. My cows are between 1050-1150 depending on when they cross the scale. My bulls are 17-1800 at 5 years old. The last 5 years, the calves have averaged 582 weening weight.
My neighbor has large cows, 16-1800 pounds. I can run 3 cows to his 2. My 3 calves will out weigh his 2 calves every year. I believe that's what they mean when they say pounds per acre. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this comment, but for me, I like the way it works. I do sell my non breeding stock to grass finishers at the top of the market price. I occasionally take a steer to the sale barn when he doesn't meet the requirements of my buyers. I normal bring 10 cents under top price. I assume this is because my cattle aren't black but it doesn't hurt my feelings.
I think the key is to find your buyers before you have the product. If the buyers near you like big you may have to go that way or you could pave your own path and find buyers who want smaller. If you like smaller cattle make it work. If you like bigger cattle make that work. I believe there is a market for both. Main thing I have seen when it comes to price is the quality of the animals and the program that raises them. I wish everyone good luck. Lord knows anyone raising cattle needs it.

 

[Warren Allison]

That chart is ancient. Trangie Station "developed" the Lowline (no longer a breed - now Aberdine Angus) back in 1929 to 1964. Think about what it says. Look at the "breeds" listed and the carcass weight at 18 months old.

Jeannne, did anyone even know what a Wagyu was 60 years ago? In 1964?

 

[wbvs58]

Jeannne, did anyone even know what a Wagyu was 60 years ago? In 1964?

Warren there is a report dated 1991 from which this data was taken I think. The project started in 1974 but they were only developing their Lowline group along with a Highline group and a control group. It is pretty messy reading. I googled when Australia went metric and it said that metrication was complete in 1984, this chart has all imperial measurements, lbs and acres.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Ken - LOL I can't answer that!
But, I do know that the original experiment was to compare small vs large. As you mentioned, they were developing Lowline and Highline group. If you look up the research, they decided too small or too large was not efficient. Extremes were not good. All the cattle were SUPPOSED to go to slaughter, but one of the workers/developers?, kept the Lowlines and started the Lowline breed.

 

[Ebenezer]

That chart is ancient. Trangie Station "developed" the Lowline (no longer a breed - now Aberdine Angus) back in 1929 to 1964. Think about what it says. Look at the "breeds" listed and the carcass weight at 18 months old.
Brute said "Pounds per acres are the same no matter the size of the cow. You may run more head with smaller cattle or less head with larger cattle but the pounds are the same."
Think about that. Very accurate.
Also, every animal takes just as long as far as labor - every cow has to be handled, vaccinated, calved, get bred, record keeping. Cow size does not cut down on labor/time. Also, most vaccines are by head - not weight. Deworming is about the only thing we do that is based on weight - and antibiotics.
It has been proven that maintenance is not linear. An 1800# cow does not eat twice as much as a 900# cow. (extreme example, but accurate)
Mainly, your COWS should be sized for your land. Little cows on my land would be rolly polly toads. Total waste of good land. I have BIG cows. They are not supplemented in any way - strictly grass and hay. All my hay is put up on my land along with rotational grazing. But, on the other hand, you would not want my cows on poor growing land.

Dead on. Folks cherry pick data to prove themselves to be right. If pounds of gain are based on a conversion rate of feed then the data has no affect on the calves being fed. That is where feed efficiency and mature weight kick in. I also agree from broader research that the feed consumption per CWT of cow weight is not linear. Folks can always say that they are selling grassfed beef, direct marketing... but they have to sell EVERY animal, finished calf, cull cow, pound bull and whatever else in that limited market to not lose money.

Like a fellow told me one time, it is hard to find a decent cow that is not around 1200 pounds. This was from a perspective of trying to top the market with feeder calves, sell replacement heifers and market the top end bull calves as breeding stock. I have some less and some a little more but that is the target to be moderate and have wide marketing opportunities.