Does more pounds per acre make up for being docked at the sale barn for small frame size?

[bird dog]

Ask a big packer if they want overly large animals or overly small and they will say neither. They want ones that fit the size the industry wants. Box cuts in other words. Big cuts have to be trimmed to meet this size. Small cuts have to go to another source. Consequently the real large frame calves are discounted. Small frame calves are just avoided. Uniform groups of moderate size will always bring the best price.

Selling to the public is great for small producers. Its quite troublesome if you produce more than say 20 calves a year. It takes a lot of time to fool with that many customers especially if you are selling halves or quarters. I will continue to try and produce what the big packers want.

 

[WFfarm]

I read once that rabbits can produce way more pounds of meat per acres that cattle.

 

[Caustic Burno]

There is an argument out there for a smaller frame size and that you can run more pounds per acre by having a smaller framed animal. Seems like they are docked hard at the sale barn though. Say you could run 100 animals instead of 75. To me that would mean 25 more chances of something happening to the cow or calf as well. Was watching a YouTube video and the bull almost seemed like a miniature.

What is your cost a day to keep a bovine standing in the pasture? Until you know this your just guessing.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Pounds per acres are the same no matter the size of the cow. You may run more head with smaller cattle or less head with larger cattle but the pounds are the same.

To explain this from the opposite direction, an acre of ground can only produce so many lbs of forage. (there ARE ways to change this, but not with the number of animals on the pasture). These lbs. of forage can be 'translated' into AUMs (Animal Unit Months) of feed. Often an Animal Unit (AU) is thought of as a single animal, it is not. An AU is 1,000lbs of live animal weight. So, changing from fewer animals that are larger to more animals that are smaller does not change the number of AUs that are, or can be, grazed on a said pasture.

FYI.- AUMs do not really have a defined accepted value in lbs as the quantity of feed consumed by an AU is somewhat variable, but a value of 790lbs can be calculated for this quantity and should be used as a general rule. I use 790# for static AUMs given in vegetation production values in the Web Soil Survey available on line which shows forage production based on soil type.

 

[Warren Allison]

So the consensus seems to be it could make sense if your willing to direct market instead of the sale barn. Probably not something I want to get into right now. Can respect the ability of different size animals and different breeds to perform better in certain situations though. Seems like some people get hung up on this is the best breed or best size though when there are tons of factors that could determine what could work in specific situations.

I mean, yeah, if you gonna run Dexters, mini Herefords, etc, you;d get docked at the sale. But, say you had 1100 lb Angus or Hereford cows. They will wean a 500 lb steer in 6 mos. Angus and ANg x Herf black baldies will bring top dollar at the sale. Now,. say you had 1600+ Simmental cows. They gonna wean a 700 lb calf. You can raise 4 of the Ang or Herf, for the same feed costs as 3 Simms. The Ang and Herf will yield you 2000+ lbs, and the 3 Simms 2100+lbs. Virtually the same yield. Put a black Simm bull on the Herf and Angus, and an Angus bull on the Simms, and the difference will be a lot less.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

That chart is ancient. Trangie Station "developed" the Lowline (no longer a breed - now Aberdine Angus) back in 1929 to 1964. Think about what it says. Look at the "breeds" listed and the carcass weight at 18 months old.
Brute said "Pounds per acres are the same no matter the size of the cow. You may run more head with smaller cattle or less head with larger cattle but the pounds are the same."
Think about that. Very accurate.
Also, every animal takes just as long as far as labor - every cow has to be handled, vaccinated, calved, get bred, record keeping. Cow size does not cut down on labor/time. Also, most vaccines are by head - not weight. Deworming is about the only thing we do that is based on weight - and antibiotics.
It has been proven that maintenance is not linear. An 1800# cow does not eat twice as much as a 900# cow. (extreme example, but accurate)
Mainly, your COWS should be sized for your land. Little cows on my land would be rolly polly toads. Total waste of good land. I have BIG cows. They are not supplemented in any way - strictly grass and hay. All my hay is put up on my land along with rotational grazing. But, on the other hand, you would not want my cows on poor growing land.

I'm not so sure about sizing your cows based on your land, but I see what you are saying. Having large animals on a small amount of acreage kinda makes for cramped quarters for the animal, and I think this is where you were going. Smaller animals on a lot of acreage can make sense though. Just means you can have a lot more animals. When it comes to deciding if land is "good" or not, I would have to say that the most unbiased evaluation tool that can be used to make that determination would be the Pasture Condition Score Sheet utilized by the NRCS. There are things that one may want to consider within a pasture for their own purposes, but those things are items that are not universal in their value and may be beneficial to some while detrimental to others. In terms of smaller animals for smaller/larger animals I was thinking, what about sheep? But then I have to stop and think, this is a cattle forum, so sheep don't count, or not nearly as much.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Selling to the public is great for small producers. Its quite troublesome if you produce more than say 20 calves a year. It takes a lot of time to fool with that many customers especially if you are selling halves or quarters. I will continue to try and produce what the big packers want.

It's actually quite dependent on your market and locality. I know of a producer that custom produces beef to the tune of 113 animals to the public per year and he cannot keep up with the demand.

 

[wbvs58]

In that trial I think it would have been a challenge to come up with an accurate stocking rate for the different breeds, hard to get various pastures equal in quality and a lot of judgement to say what an equivalent stocking rate would be for the various breeds and groups. Maybe they calculated it based on the live weight of the animal.

Ken

 

[simme]

My experience - It does not take a 1600# simmental cow to wean a 700# calf. I have posted my averages in the past, but pretty routinely wean bulls in the 7xx# range and heifers in the 650# range. My cows are not big. Probably in the 1250 to 1400 range. They have pretty good capacity/volume. Pretty good grass even though it is endophyte fescue. Calving in the fall, weaning in the spring. Calves nursing in the time of year it seems the endophyte effect is less. Just my real life experience and using Trutest scales. I have posted plenty pictures.

I remember a poster here from the upper midwest (she has disappeared in recent years) that posted that all her cows wean calves (heifers and bulls) that weigh at least 70% of the cow's weight. That would be 700# from a 1000# cow. That would be a 1050# calf from a 1500# cow and a 1400# weaning weight from a 2000# cow. I was a little skeptical of those weights, I must admit. Might not have hit the zero button on the scales maybe. Consider that sometimes people might be "confused".

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I agree with lb/acre.
I don't know about any of you, but managing 50 cows (to me) is less work than 75 cows, if I am going to make same money.
I have some cows that are 1400# and a few 1800#. One doesn't take any less time to care for.

 

[Warren Allison]

My experience - It does not take a 1600# simmental cow to wean a 700# calf. I have posted my averages in the past, but pretty routinely wean bulls in the 7xx# range and heifers in the 650# range. My cows are not big. Probably in the 1250 to 1400 range. They have pretty good capacity/volume. Pretty good grass even though it is endophyte fescue. Calving in the fall, weaning in the spring. Calves nursing in the time of year it seems the endophyte effect is less. Just my real life experience and using Trutest scales. I have posted plenty pictures.

I remember a poster here from the upper midwest (she has disappeared in recent years) that posted that all her cows wean calves (heifers and bulls) that weigh at least 70% of the cow's weight. That would be 700# from a 1000# cow. That would be a 1050# calf from a 1500# cow and a 1400# weaning weight from a 2000# cow. I was a little skeptical of those weights, I must admit. Might not have hit the zero button on the scales maybe. Consider that sometimes people might be "confused".

I routinely weaned 500 lb calves off of 700lb Corriente cows so that's right at 70%. When I bought those 22 Plummers last month, I sold the calves by a Chi-Angus bull, and the lightest heifer was 715 and the heaviest steer was 803. They were 5 and 1/2 to 6 mos old, and the smallest cow was 1638 lbs and the largest was 1800 lbs, so that is less than 50%.

 

[Rmc]

Pounds per acres are the same no matter the size of the cow. You may run more head with smaller cattle or less head with larger cattle but the pounds are the same.

Not quite. Feed efficiency makes a huge difference. Since up to 75 percent of cow retention cost is feed. 1400 plus cows in this area eat way to much feed to offset a slightly larger calf.

 

[Silver]

If my big cow eats $100 (this is conservative) more hay over winter than a small cow but gives me 100 lbs more calf (also conservative ) it just makes good business sense to have the bigger cow. The only time the business model for little cows makes sense (assuming your geography will support larger cattle) is if a person is stocking right to the maximum. And then sheep make more sense than cattle, so the little cow still loses out.

 

[Brute 23]

I think yall are misunderstanding my comment.

 

[Travlr]

We're all talking about little cow/big cow... but it's really more about inefficient cow/efficient cow. A bigger cow is more likely to raise a bigger calf, but the ratio of weaned pounds to size of the cow is important. I would buy 30 or so cows from a single source if I could because I was looking for consistent animals with some expectation of similar breeding... and before I bred them to anything they had to put a calf on the ground and show me that their calf would grow. From a February calving season until May when I either AI'd or turned a bull in I was looking at the calf they'd put on the ground. And if the calf didn't make 600 pounds by 205 days the cow and that calf was down the road. And I'd notice if a smaller cow was raising a calf that kept up with a calf from a bigger cow. Out of the 30 cows I'd buy, ten or twelve wouldn't make the cut... and I was buying good cows. They were still good cows when they didn't make the cut. Some heavier didn't make it, and some lighter, all based on what kind of calf they produced.

 

[Warren Allison]

My experience - It does not take a 1600# simmental cow to wean a 700# calf. I have posted my averages in the past, but pretty routinely wean bulls in the 7xx# range and heifers in the 650# range. My cows are not big. Probably in the 1250 to 1400 range. They have pretty good capacity/volume. Pretty good grass even though it is endophyte fescue. Calving in the fall, weaning in the spring. Calves nursing in the time of year it seems the endophyte effect is less. Just my real life experience and using Trutest scales. I have posted plenty pictures.

I remember a poster here from the upper midwest (she has disappeared in recent years) that posted that all her cows wean calves (heifers and bulls) that weigh at least 70% of the cow's weight. That would be 700# from a 1000# cow. That would be a 1050# calf from a 1500# cow and a 1400# weaning weight from a 2000# cow. I was a little skeptical of those weights, I must admit. Might not have hit the zero button on the scales maybe. Consider that sometimes people might be "confused".

How old are your calves at weaning, @simme?

 

[Travlr]

How old are your calves at weaning, @simme?

I was wondering the same thing with yours, Warren. 205 days is the industry standard for weaning, and weights. You'll see that in registered sales even if they don't have the exact 205 day weight. It will be listed as an "adjusted" 205 day weight.

 

[simme]

How old are your calves at weaning, @simme?

Around 7 months. I have a short calving season, but weigh/wean them on the same day. So some variation in age equal to length of calving season. But weaning weights I use are adjusted to 205 day per industry standards. Reason for adjustment is to be able to compare weights between calves. Otherwise, a person could wean at 8 and report way better weights than a person who weans at 6. But that would not necessarily mean that the older calves have more growth ability and gives an unfair comparison. Breed associations and many commercial people adjust to 205 days.

Formula is: Adjusted 205-day weight equals (actual weaning weight minus birth weight divided by age in days) multiplied by (205 plus birth weight plus age-of-dam adjustment).

Age of dam adjustment adds an adjustment for young dams and old dams. Again to attempt to get a number that reflects growth in the calf genetics independent of the age of the dam. A 2 year old will produce less milk on her first lactation. Increasing milk production until about 5 years old. Full milk production for 5 years and then will taper off some after 10 years of age. Age of dam adjustment compensates for that change in milk production with age.

 

[Warren Allison]

I was wondering the same thing with yours, Warren. 205 days is the industry standard for weaning, and weights. You'll see that in registered sales even if they don't have the exact 205 day weight. It will be listed as an "adjusted" 205 day weight.

We timed our Corr herds to calve in February each year, and we'd carry them to the sale the weekend before dove season: Last of August or 1st of September, so the youngest was about 6 mos, the oldest maybe 6 mos and 2-3 weeks. Those Chi-angus I sold were 5 1/2 to o6 months old. I wanted to keep them another month, but the dude offered me $1400 more for all 22 than I paid for the pairs, so I sold. Wonder why they picked a random number like 205 for a weaning age? Seemed like they would say 6 mos or 7 mos or something. Where did the 205 days come from?

 

[simme]

Those chi-angus heifer calves that the lightest one weighed 715 pounds at 5 1/2 months old. That is a 205 day adjusted weaning weight of 875 pounds. Impressive for a heifer calf. Them steer calves that weighed 803 at that age have a 205 day adjusted ww of 985 pounds. Very good! Even more if the dams were less than 5 years old or more than 10. Post some pictures of those sometimes. I think you win an award!