Does more pounds per acre make up for being docked at the sale barn for small frame size?

[Rmc]

So even though you have same rate of infertility/non breeding in both herds years 3-5 . There is still a significant higher number of the TT herd in production.
So the TT genetics lead to an overall higher average of number of years in the herd/longevity.

Hmm looks like I am discussing it here .
And my quotes are directly from the conclusion. And it includes that information.

You left out that they lost that benefit as they aged.
I should not comment on this Plag thing. Never heard of it before. Not too interested.

Yes. If you have a growthy heifer and she is deprived of proper nutrition, she will not start cycling and will be hard to get bred. If you don't understand that concept, we are totally wasting our time discussing anything with you.

So the more TT fertile smaller heifers are more fertile because their own herd mates were starved. Btw this study was based on a single herd and was over 25 years in length.
Hmm it would seem to me it would be financially beneficial to have TT cows crossed to a tt bull. You would get the benefit of the smaller higher fertility in your cows and get the added advantage of growth in your calves. Oh wait isn't that some weird thing called hybrid vigor.
And isn't this thread about something like is it financially beneficial to keep the larger cows or smaller cows?
Hmm maybe someone should start a thread about that and discuss those things!

 

[Mark Reynolds]

You left out that they lost that benefit as they aged.
I should not comment on this Plag thing. Never heard of it before. Not too interested.

Yes. If you have a growthy heifer and she is deprived of proper nutrition, she will not start cycling and will be hard to get bred. If you don't understand that concept, we are totally wasting our time discussing anything with you.

I'll add to that the notion that climate/weather/location stresses are likely to have a disproportionately larger effect on the larger framed cows in hot, humid climates. Hence cycling start time will be even more sporadic.

 

[Rmc]

Heifers with high fertility BVs reach puberty earlier than low fertility BV heifers

The findings from this study show there may be potential in earlier fertility measures to increase the accuracy of the fertility BV

www.agrisciencer.com

So the low fertility heifers in this study must have been starved to I guess

 

[Rmc]

 

[Travlr]

Amazing how making print larger equates to making information more valid to some people.

 

[Rmc]

Amazing how making print larger equates to making information more valid to some people.

What amazes me is how some continue to post and post yet none of it has anything to do with the topic being discussed

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I finally got around to reading that first study information and it ended with this.

Table 7. Net Returns per Cow When Charged on a per Head Basis
Cow Wt.	1000 lb.​	1200 lb.​	1400 lb.​
Cows Bred	592​	592​	592​
Resource Base 1​
Net Return Per Cow	$134.72	$153.39	$177.11
Resource Base 2​
Net Return Per Cow	$50.46​	$51.28​	$60.75​
Resource Base 3​
Net Return Per Cow	($17.87)​	($29.81)​	($32.35)​

All I can say is...

Yes, I believe the research was for data to change the charge to AU instead of by the head. They could charge more for bigger cows.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

You are like a dog with a bone and won't quit fighting for it.
You are scouring the world looking for something to prove your point. You found a NZ Dairy study. They took the absolutely lowest fertility females and bred them to the lowest fertility bulls so they had extremes. Super high fertility and super low fertility. Wow - the low fertility cattle were low on fertility. WOW!!!!!
The study showed the low fertility cows were 44# heavier than the high fertility cows. Hmm. That's like the cows sh!t a time or 2 more than the others. Really, you pulled this study to prove WHAT?? When cattle are actively cycling, they don't gain as much as a dud that is sitting around eating.
44# - is this your example of big cows vs small cows?
When I referenced the big cows in the research LONG ABOVE - there was obviously pizz poor grazing and the big cows were not getting enough nutrition for their reproductive needs.

 

[Rmc]

When I referenced the big cows in the research LONG ABOVE - there was obviously pizz poor grazing and the big cows were not getting enough nutrition for their reproductive needs.

So can you show me where this obviously pizz poor grazing is happening anywhere from this research. If you have more info on this research and how University of Florida manipulated the amount of feed given to each herd to achieve the results in the research I would love to learn more about it?

AN226/AN226: Relationship of Cow Size to Nutrient Requirements and Production Management Issues

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Is this what you are referring to

Or is this what you are referring to ?

 

[Ebenezer]

There are people that I sincerely feel that are due pity because of their inability to deal with conflict, cannot openly discuss, who always look for a fight or take a position to try to always win. There is no point in the argument. All are losers to keep it going. RMC, you need a life and you have my pity. And to be frank, you are ineffective in communicating your point because of your ill manner of presentation.

 

[Dave]

I realize my business model is different than most. But the salvage value of the cow is a huge part of my business. And no matter how you operate the salvage value is important. I simply don't want small cows. Not only do the dress out smaller the price per pound drops significantly on those smaller weights. I don't want huge cows because of the range land environment they spend the summer in. To give you an idea of what that place is like. I asked B if I should bring my quad to help gather the cows. He replied that there is no portion of this place where you can use a quad. That coming from a man who is three quarters suicidal on a quad. Big heavy cows will be on a diet plan over there.

 

[farmerjan]

All this still does not give the answer to the question asked.... that more pounds per acre, from smaller animals...make up for being docked at the sale barn. The answer is NO if the buyers do not want the smaller animals. If the buyers are not wanting the smaller animals... I mean smaller FRAME size... then having 50% more weight won't help if the price per pound is that much less than the larger frame size that the buyers want.
The frame size and pounds per acre on lesser number of cattle that @Jeanne - Simme Valley produces, and that @Silver and @gcreekrch produce in Canada will make them more money than if they had smaller cattle... the smaller cattle will not do as good in those colder winter climates... they need the pounds/frame to carry more weight into the cold weather in the form of body reserves..... and to draw on when they first calve since they are calving in colder weather and the cows have to make milk... their type of grass grows fast and lush and the cows need the body size to consume the QUANTITIES they need to replenish their body reserves, make milk, and breed back.
Here we have some smaller cattle.. and they are the first to lose body condition when they calve if the weather is still cold. We get alot of cold wet rainy sleety crappy weather and that sucks the energy right out of cattle... we see it with the smaller cows.... the bigger framed ones, with more body reserves, can withstand that better... They eat less often, and their rumen's work longer on the greater amount of intake, so generates more internal body heat.... smaller cattle can not eat the QUANTITY they need to withstand those long cold spells... so they eat less but eat more often...
I am not putting down all the genetic studies.. and maybe the smaller ones are a little more fertile... but I don't see it... the thing of it is, it doesn't make a hill of beans if you have 40 calves weaning at 400# or 30 calves weaning at 550# if the buyers do not want those smaller framed calves.... so the lbs per acre do NOT make up for the lower price...and the cows are probably eating more than the larger cows are eating in the long run.

 

[farmerjan]

@Dave is right on the salvage value also... anything weighing under 1000 lbs live weight is going to bring less per pound at the sale, or on the rail.... so having cows to fit the business model is also important... 12-1500 is the sweet spot here for cull cows in good flesh.... and getting $.15 to $.30 more per pound for the cull animal adds up also... a 1200 lb cow does not eat much more than a 1000 lb cow.... and she usually will produce a calf that will bring $.20-.40 more per pound as a feeder, because they have a better frame size and more pounds to sell....

 

[Mark Reynolds]

All this still does not give the answer to the question asked.... that more pounds per acre, from smaller animals...make up for being docked at the sale barn. The answer is NO if the buyers do not want the smaller animals. If the buyers are not wanting the smaller animals... I mean smaller FRAME size... then having 50% more weight will help if the price per pound is that much less than the larger frame size that the buyers want.
The frame size and pounds per acre on lesser number of cattle that @Jeanne - Simme Valley produces, and that @Silver and @gcreekrch produce in Canada will make them more money than if they had smaller cattle... the smaller cattle will not do as good in those colder winter climates... they need the pounds/frame to carry more weight into the cold weather in the form of body reserves..... and to draw on when they first calve since they are calving in colder weather and the cows have to make milk... their type of grass grows fast and lush and the cows need the body size to consume the QUANTITIES they need to replenish their body reserves, make milk, and breed back.
Here we have some smaller cattle.. and they are the first to lose body condition when they calve if the weather is still cold. We get alot of cold wet rainy sleety crappy weather and that sucks the energy right out of cattle... we see it with the smaller cows.... the bigger framed ones, with more body reserves, can withstand that better... They eat less often, and their rumens work longer on the greater amount of intake, so generates more internal body heat.... smaller cattle can not eat the QUANTITY they need to withstand those long cold spells... so they eat less but eat more often...
I am not putting down all the genetic studies.. and maybe the smaller ones are a little more fertile... but I don't see it... the thing of it is, it doesn't make a hill of beans if you have 40 calves weaning at 400# or 30 calves weaning at 550# if the buyers do not want those smaller framed calves.... so the lbs per acre do NOT make up for the lower price...and the cows are probably eating more than the larger cows are eating in the long run.

The short answer is, as Jim Garrish says: "It depends". In reality, you could write a book for an answer and still not cover it all. I like your synopsis.

 

[Dave]

I pulled out the paper I got from the plant in August. These are based on hot carcass hanging weight.

cows 550 pounds and up got $2.20/lb
cows 450/500 pounds got $2.17
cows 400/450 pounds got $2.11

My cows over 500 hanging weight averaged $1,272.
I had one cow in the 400/450 lbs she brought in $932.
That is $340 less. I don't want that kind.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I realize my business model is different than most. But the salvage value of the cow is a huge part of my business. And no matter how you operate the salvage value is important. I simply don't want small cows. Not only do the dress out smaller the price per pound drops significantly on those smaller weights. I don't want huge cows because of the range land environment they spend the summer in. To give you an idea of what that place is like. I asked B if I should bring my quad to help gather the cows. He replied that there is no portion of this place where you can use a quad. That coming from a man who is three quarters suicidal on a quad. Big heavy cows will be on a diet plan over there.

Dave, business models are like snowflakes. There are a whole lot of them. Many of them are very similar. Some, and a fair number, are quite different from any other. However, in the end, NO two are the same.

 

[Dave]

Dave, business models are like snowflakes. There are a whole lot of them. Many of them are very similar. Some, and a fair number, are quite different from any other. However, in the end, NO two are the same.

No kidding! Did you read the first sentence in my comment?

 

[Dave]

The short answer is, as Jim Garrish says: "It depends". In reality, you could write a book for an answer and still not cover it all. I like your synopsis.

I really like Jim and picking his brain. I haven't talked to him in person in a number of years but he was always a great resource.

I also really like his choice of places to retire to. That area would have been near the top of my list except the wife didn't want to move that far from her family.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

No kidding! Did you read the first sentence in my comment?

I did. I wasn't meaning for my comment to be taken negatively. I was pointing out that EVERYONE'S business model is different from everyone elses business model. Your buisness model may be unique, but everyone's business model is unique to them, and unlike anyone elses. I write grazing plans as part of my career. I've written many that are similar to many others, and I've written many that are quite different from any other grazing plan I have written, but I have yet to write two grazing plans that are identical.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Busy moving down to Cornwall so am too busy to take part at the moment, here are a link to an article on grazing and the Florida workshop on selecting grass based genetics; https://www.farmersweekly.co.za/animals/cattle/man-cattle-veld/

Johann is one of the cattleman I respect the most. His book is a great read but it is important to understand the context in which he wrote from. Zimbabwe was a very difficult place to operate both in terms of climate and access to resources. In the sourveld, the first limiting factor was fertility and smaller earlier maturing cattle were needed because they can eat more low quality feed per pound of body weigh than a larger cow with a slower metabolism. Ironically it takes a less efficient cow to remove the gorse and improve the range. My take home is that you want as much growth and milk as your cows can produce while getting bred back. At some point there is a limit to fertility, a cow can't calve more than once a year.