Does more pounds per acre make up for being docked at the sale barn for small frame size?

[Rmc]

A little more that was conveniently not quoted by travlr

 

[Rmc]

And some more that was not posted.hmm

 

[Rmc]

So where did any of the studies say that smaller framed cattle weren't more fertile ?
Oh wait they say the opposite just as I claimed. The plag 1 study used the same herd for research for over 25 years . IT's conclusion that the TT variant of the plag1 gene increased fertility and reduced the frame size when compared to their own herd mates. In a herd that already had a higher then average fertility rate then the average herds in the area.

 

[Travlr]

Yet the conclusion of the first study you conveniently didnt quote why was that?
Maybe because it in part said this!
View attachment 37050

LOL... facepalm

Can't have a discussion with a guy that uses that kind of logic. And just to be clear... your misunderstanding wasn't about your issue in fertility/frame which prompted my initial comment.

And there's that sledgehammer again.

 

[Rmc]

Your continued attacks against me and trying to play "gotcha" don't change the scientific research. Research says that frame size and fertility are both effected by multiple gene's including the plag1 location.
So instead of attacking me. Let's get back to the topic at hand

Crickets...

Yep once again crickets from travlr on the actual topic.
Can you show me where my claim that fertility and frame size are linked isn't valid?
Or is it more profitable to raise more smaller framed cattle ?

 

[farmerjan]

There's no profit if the buyers pay less for the smaller framed cattle regardless of how many you have. Linking fertility and smaller frame size is not going to help if the buyers don't want them enough to pay the higher prices...

Prices were off here this past week also... But around here, that is very NORMAL for this time of year. I have preached to my son for years... You do not sell anything from the first of November through the end of the year... November is HUNTING SEASON and they ALWAYS drop off in price... December is too much holiday season and people are not wanting to deal with them....
Another thing, November is also when our weather goes from 20's and 30's at night up to 70's days... and the temp swings are an invitation to more pneumonia and respiratory problems...

 

[Travlr]

Yep once again crickets from travlr on the actual topic.
Can you show me where my claim that fertility and frame size are linked isn't valid?
Or is it more profitable to raise more smaller framed cattle ?

Okay... this will be my last post to you. You keep moving the goal posts, including saying that I've said things I didn't. You aren't being honest.

But once again from a prior post:

This from your own link:

Increasing cow BW (body weight) was positively associated (P < 0.01) with the percentage of cows that conceived during a 45-d breeding season. For every additional 100-kg increase in cow BW, calf BW increased (P < 0.01) at birth by 2.70 kg and adjusted 205-d weaning BW by 14.76 kg. Calf preweaning average daily gain (ADG) increased (P < 0.01) 0.06 kg/d for every additional 100-kg increase in cow BW.

AND

Herds with smaller cows cull a larger share of the herd each year, resulting in relatively more cull cow gross revenue. Total costs to run a smaller cow were larger due to added fixed costs of running another cow–calf pair

What am I supposed to think when your own links don't deal in your contentions about PLAG 1 variations? But easily found in a short search:

PLAG1 is a gene with allelic variation that has well-documented associations with stature and age at puberty in cattle.

AND

the effects of PLAG1 genotype on fertility began to diminish as cows aged and did not significantly influence stayability at later ages.

And the top two items are from your own link. That last says it all in terms of what the discussion originally focused on... longevity.

Are you operating on all cylinders? I mean... I'm not trying to throw you under the bus or be mean... but your OCD to the point that you will deny your own information, cherry picking only what you want in order to create a fantasy conclusion is kind of...

And Buddy... I've seen it several times.

 

[Rmc]

Yep once again crickets from travlr on the actual topic.
Can you show me where my claim that fertility and frame size are linked isn't valid?
Or is it more profitable to raise more smaller framed cattle ?

 

[Rmc]

And then there is this:

Heifers with two copies of the alternate allele (TT) conceived earlier and had higher pregnancy and calving rates. However, the effects of PLAG1 genotype on fertility began to diminish as cows aged and did not significantly influence stayability at later ages.

Let's do some basic math so you can understand.
If you have 200 heifers
100 of them are TT at plag1
100 of them are tt at plag1
And you have a 60 day breeding window
In year one in the TT herd 8 are culled for being infertile/don't breed
Year 2 -8 more don't breed
Year 3 -7
Year 4 -7
Year 5 -7
So after year 5 how many of the 100 are left?
So
8+8+7+7+7 = 37 culled for non breeding.
100-37 =63 original TT out of the 100 still in herd after 5 years.
Now the tt herd
First year 16 don't breed
Year 2 15
Year 3 7
Year 4 7
Year 5 7
So after 5 years how many of the original 100tt are still in the herd?
16-15-7-7-7 =52 culled for non breeding
100-52 =48 of the remaining 100tt stil in herd.
So even though you have same rate of infertility/non breeding in both herds years 3-5 . There is still a significant higher number of the TT herd in production.
So the TT genetics lead to a overall higher average of number of years in the herd/longevity.

 

[Silver]

My big old cows do far better than either of those two herds in the first two years in particular. Must be another gene in there somewhere that hasn't been identified yet.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Yep my big old cows beat both those herds by a long shot. Holy smokes a guy would take it in the shorts with those results. Haha

I would wonder if somebody got some gov't money to study that plag1 gene and didn't account for some other factor in their numbers.

 

[Ebenezer]

One gene, or two, do not make a cow. If you and the researchers don't like the TTs, test and cull.

Worried about heifer fertility: keep, breed a short window and cull the opens for a marketing angle.

Don't want much money: sell short calves.

That was easy.

 

[Ky hills]

I read some of the study and research, and admittedly get lost fairly soon.
I think some people want to make cattle breeding into rocket science. It is complex when you look at all the angles and variables and certainly have to put some thought behind it. In reality no one size fits all formula or approach is going to work for every outfit.
It takes practical experience with a learning curve to figure out what works best for an individual outfit.
There's a fine art to cattle breeding but it ain't rocket science and shouldn't be.
In a lot of ways the more modern and more technological we get with university studies, EPD's, AI breeding to a bull because so and so bred him and says he's great just means other people are making more money because we are depending on them to get results instead of learning what works in our own.

 

[Travlr]

I read some of the study and research, and admittedly get lost fairly soon.
I think some people want to make cattle breeding into rocket science. It is complex when you look at all the angles and variables and certainly have to put some thought behind it. In reality no one size fits all formula or approach is going to work for every outfit.
It takes practical experience with a learning curve to figure out what works best for an individual outfit.
There's a fine art to cattle breeding but it ain't rocket science and shouldn't be.
In a lot of ways the more modern and more technological we get with university studies, EPD's, AI breeding to a bull because so and so bred him and says he's great just means other people are making more money because we are depending on them to get results instead of learning what works in our own.

I only read one of the links because after reading it and finding out that it didn't support the contentions being presented, in fact the opposite, I figured the guy hadn't really read it himself. And too... this is all from a guy with a demonstrated bias in small cattle.

 

[Rmc]

I only read one of the links because after reading it and finding out that it didn't support the contentions being presented, in fact the opposite,

View attachment 37060
View attachment 37062

And some more that was not posted.hmm
View attachment 37054

So explain to me how this study says the exact opposite of what I said ?
I want cows that make me money in my situation. And the 1400 lb cows don't do that . And many in my area as well as research done by USU and CSU support that idea.
Size and fertility are linked . The larger the cow the later cycling and reduced fertility occur. Research done around the world supports this the plag1 was done in Australia I believe. One I posted was done in the intermountain west, one was done in Nebraska .similar studies done in Florida.
So stop letting your bias against me affect your judgment. Show me where I am wrong big boy! You can't and you won't .way easier to attack me personally then actually have to defend and debate your point of view!

 

[CowboyRam]

There is a local rancher I was talking to at the sale barn a few weeks ago and he said that they have had problems with those bigger cows not getting bred back. It sounded like he was speaking from experience.

 

[wbvs58]

I read some of the study and research, and admittedly get lost fairly soon.
I think some people want to make cattle breeding into rocket science. It is complex when you look at all the angles and variables and certainly have to put some thought behind it. In reality no one size fits all formula or approach is going to work for every outfit.
It takes practical experience with a learning curve to figure out what works best for an individual outfit.
There's a fine art to cattle breeding but it ain't rocket science and shouldn't be.
In a lot of ways the more modern and more technological we get with university studies, EPD's, AI breeding to a bull because so and so bred him and says he's great just means other people are making more money because we are depending on them to get results instead of learning what works in our own.

At the end of the day it is one bull and one cow to produce a calf and you use the best of both that is available to you within your means. As important as the bull is but I think you have more opportunities to select for what you want in the cow herd, 1st with heifer selection then how well she gets in calf, any problems calving, then how she goes back into calf, what sort of job she does on her calf then feet and structural problems she may develop as she matures so there is enough opportunities there to decide if we want her.

Ken

 

[Travlr]

There is a local rancher I was talking to at the sale barn a few weeks ago and he said that they have had problems with those bigger cows not getting bred back. It sounded like he was speaking from experience.

I'm betting that they cull their older cows for age as much as for infertility... and they keep replacement heifers from first and second calf cows more than from the older animals. If you don't intentionally breed for longevity... amazingly enough you don't get longevity.

 

[CowboyRam]

I'm betting that they cull their older cows for age as much as for infertility... and they keep replacement heifers from first and second calf cows more than from the older animals. If you don't intentionally breed for longevity... amazingly enough you don't get longevity.

I'm sure they do that, but they run about 1100-1200 pound cows. He said they don't like the simm/angus because they are just to big for the country, and they had trouble getting them bred back. There could be other factors in play. I have had the best breed back that I have ever had this year. Most of my cows average around that 1200 pound mark, a few lighter and a few probably heavier. This year our grass on the dessert was the best we have ever had. I got a good mineral program here on the farm, and I used Redmond's salt blocks at the ranch. It could be that my BH bull was more aggressive breeder. The old time cow foreman at Warren's told dad that those Black Angus bulls were lazy. Dad said he spent a lot of time training dad how to be cow foreman. When it came to picking out bull no one was better than him. He knew cattle; of course he started at Warren's when he was like 15, and never worked anywhere else.

 

[Travlr]

I'm sure they do that, but they run about 1100-1200 pound cows. He said they don't like the simm/angus because they are just to big for the country, and they had trouble getting them bred back. There could be other factors in play. I have had the best breed back that I have ever had this year. Most of my cows average around that 1200 pound mark, a few lighter and a few probably heavier. This year our grass on the dessert was the best we have ever had. I got a good mineral program here on the farm, and I used Redmond's salt blocks at the ranch. It could be that my BH bull was more aggressive breeder. The old time cow foreman at Warren's told dad that those Black Angus bulls were lazy. Dad said he spent a lot of time training dad how to be cow foreman. When it came to picking out bull no one was better than him. He knew cattle; of course he started at Warren's when he was like 15, and never worked anywhere else.

It's a real science finding the sweet spot, isn't it? Cattle on desert need to be able to travel, while lush pastures can support an entirely different type of animal.